The Seventh Tribe: A Movement for Change (ft. Jane Evans)

– Jane Evans is a strong advocate for midlife women’s empowerment. – The Seventh Tribe aims to create a supportive community for women. – Ageism and feminism are interconnected issues that need to be addressed. – Women have historically lost rights and need to reclaim their narratives. – The advertising industry has significant challenges for women, especially in leadership roles. – Personal experiences can fuel professional advocacy and change. Community support is crucial for women to thrive in their careers. – The future of society depends on the voices of matriarchs. – Women need to be visible in media and leadership positions. – The Social Imagination Project aims to envision a better future for all.

00:00 Introduction to Jane Evans and Her Journey 02:39 The Uninvisibility Project and Midlife Women’s Empowerment 05:49 Defining Midlife and Addressing Ageism 08:45 The Seventh Tribe: A New Movement for Women 11:43 The Story of Dina: A Feminist Perspective 14:35 The Rise of Women and the Dismantling of Patriarchy 17:21 Jane’s Background and Early Career in Advertising 20:23 Challenges in the Advertising Industry 23:11 The Launch of Microsoft Word and Early Tech Experiences 26:01 Moving to Australia and Building a Career 28:51 Groundbreaking Campaigns and Recognition 31:50 The Struggles of Being a Female Creative Director 34:43 Starting Her Own Agency and Success 37:42 Navigating Personal Challenges and Business Growth 40:33 The Seventh Tribe and Social Imagination Project 43:35 Empowering Women Through Community and Support 46:34 The Future of Women in Society 49:31 Conclusion and Call to Action

Jules (00:13) I have today a woman who absolutely has made me want to get back into podcasting again. Her name is Jane Evans. She is talking to me from London. Jane, welcome. Jane Evans (00:26) Hi, good morning or good evening or whatever it is. Jules (00:27) Ha! whatever it is for whoever’s listening. So I’m gonna tell you a tiny bit that I know about Jane. She is the founder of the Seventh Tribe and she’s also the author of, I wanna get the name right, ⁓ from, look, hang on, the author of Invisible, look, it’s gone. Go on, you tell them. Jane Evans (00:48) invisible to invaluable unleashing the- invisible to invaluable, unleashing the power of midlife women written with my dear friend, Carol Russell. And it’s a manifesto and a call to arms for midlife women to come into their power and damn well change the world. Jules (01:11) I can’t tell you how much I fucking love it, as I’ve already told you before we got started. So ⁓ my next question to you is great, so you can start explaining, but what is it that you do and why have you called it the seventh tribe? Jane Evans (01:30) Okay, so just to give you a bit of background to me for anybody listening who doesn’t know me, so I was probably one of the most successful female. creatives, advertising creatives of my generation. All of you in Australia, whenever you see a Tim Tam Genie commercial, that was one of mine. And every time you drink James Squire beer, I actually created the brand. and in 2013, I came back to the UK because one of my eldest daughter got a place at the Brit school, which is where Adele and Amy Winehouse and everybody went. And my youngest was about to start high school. So I was like, well, if we’re ever going to move back, now’s the time to do it. And I actually took my maternity leave. I had three days for both of my girls. ⁓ And I went to the National Film and Television School and studied screenwriting. ⁓ Then a couple of years later a figure came out that only 3 % of the world’s creative directors were female. So I stuck my hand up very, very loudly because I was like, I’m going to have to get back in. I’ve got no choice here. I was completely and utterly ignored by the industry. Even though I was the most ridiculously overqualified woman for the role, I was met with ageism to my face with people saying things like, I give you a job, Jane, but you’d end up as the old woman at the back of the creative department doing this shit that nobody else wants. ⁓ And for the first time in my life, I couldn’t rely on my talent to make a living. And within a couple of years, I was bankrupt, evicted, ⁓ you know, going to the food bank. ⁓ And… Jules (02:54) my god, no! Jane Evans (03:18) As I was in the food bank, as I do whenever I get into all of these sort of situations, because when you read the book it’s happened quite a few times, I basically sat there and went, why am I here? And I looked around and I realised that I was the only woman that could get out of there. Every other woman was going to be there every week, probably for the rest of her life. I was like, I ain’t never coming back here. It was like, I am going to do everything in my power to make sure I don’t come back here. But also I’m going to do everything in my power to make sure no other women like me end up here. So I set up the Uninvisibility Project, wrote the book, ⁓ set up the Visible Start Program, which actually got women employed in advertising. ⁓ And then in November of last year, I put up a post on LinkedIn and it was one of my normal midlife women we all have it so tough blah blah blah and then if you pressed more it went okay the world’s on fire us battle axes need to organize we’re meeting November the 21st 730 p.m. Jules (04:21) Yes. Jane Evans (04:25) 250 women DM’d me for information on that call and over 100 women turned up on this call. I had no idea what I was doing the call or why I was doing the call. just was like, know, sort of it blues brothers, know, sort of, you know, packing a cigarettes and a pair of blue, blue Ray-Bans and on a mission from God. So, so in December. Jules (04:48) Yeah. Jane Evans (04:56) decided I have to leave Visible Start behind. I’d come to the conclusion already that the only people that give a shit about midlife women are midlife women. And so these initiatives that we were creating were not making any difference because there wasn’t the societal change. my, you know, I was never about setting up training programs or running courses. my, you know, passion and drive was to always change the narrative. So I basically spent six months building something where women could, or mainly women, but we’re actually getting men in there at the moment and I’m sort of pivoting every two seconds with what I’m doing. But we needed a space away from the algorithm, away from the machines, away from social media, where we could actually follow the things that we were interested in. So we could talk about the Holy Land, we could talk about what’s happening in America, or we could talk about what’s on social media without being attacked with a way of looking to get solutions, ⁓ finding answers and taking action. Because, I’m sorry, but there is a war on feminism. And if anybody does not see the war on feminism at the moment, then you’re not paying attention. But, you know, Jules (06:07) Right. I would all add to that that there’s also a war on ageism and so the combination of feminism and ageism but it’s bringing all of us out of the woodwork and I just want to say as well when you say midlife what do you mean? Jane Evans (06:36) Okay, so we define midlife as 45 to 70. So from the end of fertility to the end of our working lives. Now, of course, that’s not going to be the same for everybody, but you can actually carve out, this is the last stage of your career, the middle stage of your life, because we’re to be living till we’re 90 or 100 years old. So a 20 year retirement, Jules (06:40) Okay, I love that. Yep. Yeah. Jane Evans (07:04) is, you know, that’s all anybody’s ever budgeted for. It’s a lot, it’s a lot more than most people have budgeted for and certainly more than women have. So in the UK, women have 30 % of the pension savings of men. I think the figure, I think it’s something like 48 % have less than £5,000 in pension savings. Less than £5,000. Jules (07:05) lot. Yeah! And in Australia, women over 50 are the fastest growing group of homelessness. I mean, it’s absolutely shocking. At the same time that we’re coming into our power and I don’t give a shit what anyone else thinks, I’m just gonna do something stage. Jane Evans (07:35) If I use that. When I’ve been campaigning this for a long time and there’s actually a chapter in the book about this. Which you know, I wrote in 2020 so you know you can see in the UK There’s been this wave of fucking menopause stuff now I said in 2020 if all we talk about is menopause all we are going to do is create a new stereotype of midlife women as Sweaty crazy mad ladies and it’s going to make our problems worse and it has and it was Jules (07:58) Yeah, right. Who can’t work? Who can’t work because they’ve got menopause symptoms? Jane Evans (08:22) Yeah. And it wasn’t until last year, it was actually on a post. I was moaning because they had Older Workers Week, which I just was like, that’s the most fucking stupid name on the planet. And I still think that and I don’t fucking care. And anyway, the woman we were actually in business or, know, sort of. we were aligned with the woman that was running it and I didn’t know it was her anyway, she sort of came in quite aggressively. And I was like, you know, we’ve been pushing for midlife, to call midlife for years. It was like, why can’t it be midlife workers week? Why can’t it be midlife workers week? And she went, because men associate midlife with crisis. And I went, ⁓ holy fucking shit. This is what’s happened. Yeah. Jules (08:57) Yeah. well we’ll change everything for the men. Jane Evans (09:09) We’re here we are as women going love being called midlife women because it says I’ve got half a life to live. But men and the narrative has turned in to midlife being a crisis, which is the complete book. I did a podcast. about six months ago with a young woman about, you know, sort of multi-generational design. And I talked about what life was like post-menopause. And she got to the end of it, she was going, Jane, you’re just a creative genius. She was like, I never ever thought I would start looking forward to menopause. Because… Jules (09:46) Apart from anything else for anyone who’s listening, no periods is a bloody brilliant thing for women. Jane Evans (09:54) I still have a kid at home who’s 24 and I tell you what, every month I’m just like, oh thank god I don’t go through that anymore. Thank god I don’t go through that anymore. Jules (10:01) I’ve got three of them at home and yes, feel the same way. Okay, so ⁓ the question was though, why have you called it Seventh Tribe? ⁓ Jane Evans (10:07) Yep. Why have I called it the seventh tribe? Because it’s the seventh tribe of Israel. So they always talk about the 12 tribes of Israel, don’t they? The foundation of everything. Okay, so the seven tribes of Israel. Jules (10:22) I’ve never heard of that before. Jane Evans (10:28) are the, so Abraham is the one who first talked to God and, you know, sort of, you know, offered his baby up for sacrifice to him and sort of built from there. So the 12 tribes of Israel is the basis of the Jewish race. So that is where the patriarchy sort of split off. Only these 12 are Abraham’s seed. Forget everybody else is Abraham’s seed. It’s just these 12 tribes. Jules (10:38) Yeah. Right. Jane Evans (10:56) But then there’s Dina, his daughter, seventh born. ⁓ And she fell in love with a Canaanite prince. You know, the enemy, my god. They all say he was, you know, the men’s stories say that she was raped. But feminists are like, I’m sorry, it sounds like she fell in love with him. ⁓ Anyway, anyway, know, whatever he did to her, for whatever reason, he basically went to his father and said, I love this woman, I want to marry her. So his father, the king of Canaan or whatever, goes to ⁓ her father and asks to be married. And he agrees, but only if all the men of his kingdom are circumcised. So… On the night of the wedding, two of the brothers ⁓ who, you know, sort of, she’s been defiled by the enemy, came in and killed all the men while they were recovering from the surgery. And she was taken, including the prince, and she was taken away and never heard of again. Jules (12:09) Right. Jane Evans (12:11) never mentioned again. So, and she was the first one in, you know, sort of written biblical stuff and it’s all stories and all of that. But, if you’re actually tracing the patriarchy through the Abraham line, she’s the first one who lost her inheritance rights. So, What would the world have looked like if women hadn’t lost their inheritance rights? What would have happened if women hadn’t lost maxillineal lines? Because if you’re looking at the world now… You you ask any man, all right, let’s go back to setting things up. So if a couple get married, it’s either the daughter leaving to go to the man’s family or the man leaving to go to the daughter’s family. Which would you think would be the safest option? I guarantee you every father would say, well, you wouldn’t send your daughter off to a bunch of strangers. It would be much better to bring the man into the group. I mean, Jules (13:12) No, you wouldn’t! Jane Evans (13:16) and then take into consideration that women built society. So while the men were off hunting, women were building agriculture, pottery, weaving, everything that was required, law, society. Then as townships became cities, they were the architects of the cities. They were completely in control and it was very equal. The first written word was by Enhedwana, ⁓ worshipping the goddess Ishtar. ⁓ The first known ⁓ you know, of writing by a civilian, shall we say, was a woman complaining that she didn’t get the copper she’d ordered, which would have been to create the vat to brew the beer. So in Mesopotamia… Jules (14:06) Right, wow, my god Jane, you know so much about all of this, but I love that name and that it’s got such a great story attached. Jane Evans (14:11) Yep. Well, the thing is, Mesopotamia, ⁓ patriarchy started with empire. So women were there building all of these magnificent cities. It was when the men went, let’s go and invade another city and invade another city and make it ours, that they created patriarchy. it was actually brought in by a king called Hammurabi, who erected a black stone penis. I mean, seriously, go and look at it. It’s in the Louvre. A massive black stone penis in the middle of the town, of the city, with 325 laws taking away all the rights of women. but that was only 1.3%, but that was only one, the patriarchy has only existed for 1.3 % of history. So, so we can. Jules (14:54) my god. Isn’t that amazing? yet, well, but I mean, times are changing. You can feel the rising of women, I think, at the moment. And I’ve felt it since the pandemic, particularly. Jane Evans (15:14) but we can just. but we can dismantle it because it’s only built on stories. It’s not built on any facts, it’s not built on any reasons, only built on stories. Women haven’t, so my great-grandmother, who I met, was the first woman in our family with a right to an education. It has only taken women five generations to find our stories, find the truth, look into, I mean, I’m constantly seeing things of, ⁓ they thought this warrior, this Norse warrior skeleton was a man. Whoops, it was a woman. So we can dismantle it because they won’t believe facts. Jules (15:52) ⁓ it’s a woman! Jane Evans (16:00) ⁓ They won’t believe what we say. So let’s just tell stories that will absolutely blow their reality. It was like, no, I’m sorry, you can believe that, but actually I believe this. Jules (16:16) Okay, so amazing story. So now I want to know a little bit about you and your background because you sound absolutely fascinating. So you talked about going back to England. Did you grow up in England? Jane Evans (16:32) I grew up, so I was born just outside Liverpool in 1962 and was there for the Beatles. Then my dad got a new job down south and we moved to Camberley and Surrey. Oh, okay. So my mum was an absolute stereotype of a sixties housewife. She was a beauty queen. Jules (16:46) What did your mum and dad do? Jane Evans (16:59) So which I always thought was hilarious, but she got second prize which made Monopoly interesting in our house. ⁓ my dad was an artificial inseminator, which made it really difficult when people asked you what your dad did for a living. Jules (17:00) Right, wow! ⁓ my god, really? That is amazing! Jane Evans (17:18) He traveled the world selling bull semen. he was in Australia and New Zealand. Australia and New Zealand was his territory. yes, my dad would spend like twice a year would spend six weeks in the Southern hemisphere ⁓ selling bull semen. Jules (17:22) What? Wow, how amazing. And so did you have brothers and sisters? Jane Evans (17:39) I had an older brother. ⁓ And yes, so yes, I had an older brother. ⁓ We moved to Camberley and Surrey. And the reason why that was, my mother chose it because that was where Sandhurst was, which is the officer training ⁓ camp. She was like, she moved me there because she wanted me to marry ⁓ an army officer, which I just think is absolutely hilarious because there’s absolutely no way. Jules (17:45) Okay. The office is training. no way. My father was an army officer, a British army officer. And, and my mother would have loved that too, or a doctor or a lawyer. And I was like, no way, I want a starving artist and I’m going to support them. I always say be careful what you wish for. ⁓ So, okay, so you, you got to Cambly. Did you enjoy school? Were you good at school? Jane Evans (18:09) killed each other within weeks. ⁓ I was really bored at school. was just constantly bored at school. Constantly. ⁓ I was always in trouble. ⁓ Yeah. And, you know, it was punk, so, you know, one assembly I decided that it’d be fun to take some food coloring in and give everybody punk hair and the headmaster came out to a sea of pink and purple and blue hair. Jules (18:37) Where are you? because you’re creative? guess who got into trouble. so… keep going. Jane Evans (19:02) And my favourite one was… Yeah, I was bored. It really didn’t… You know, I was intelligent. but just the way that they taught, I was bored. So anyway, at 16, ⁓ I knew exactly what I wanted to do. I wanted to get into advertising. ⁓ So at 16, I left school and went to art school, did a two-year foundation course, and then went on to do an advertising course. By the time I was 20, I got a job at Leacus Delaney as a junior art director, ⁓ one of the hottest shops in town. ⁓ Jules (19:38) Wow, hang on, wait, wait, wait, wait. How did you get in to be a junior art director? That seems like a big leap from somebody who’s come out of school straight into that kind of a role. Is it unusual? Jane Evans (19:53) OK, so at the time in the UK, there were four schools that you, four colleges that were teaching advertising or four schools that were teaching advertising creativity really well. So there were about 250 students around the country. We also did a DNA D course, which every week you go into a different advertising agency and be given a brief by people like Dave Trott, Barbara Noakes. David Abbott, Charlie Such. mean, you know, it was absolute dream, dream. ⁓ And I got my job because like picking the teams when you’re coming together as art director and copywriter was like picking, you know, in the patriarchal world, it was sports team picking. So, you know, all the boys pick the boys first and then, you know, anyway, the year above me, the person that was left was a black Jules (20:24) Big names. Yeah, right. Jane Evans (20:50) crippled guy and I was the top of my class and so they moved me up a year to go to be with this black crippled guy that nobody wanted to work with but what they didn’t realize was he was a he was fucking lovely absolutely he was a hemophiliac and a doctor had refused in fact to eight because they didn’t want to waste the NHS’s money on a black boy. Jules (21:04) Was he a lovely guy? Jane Evans (21:19) So he was very, very bitter, but the funniest, funniest, funniest human being, he actually died of AIDS through contaminated blood. Jules (21:23) Not surprised, what a thing! blood transfusions for the hemophilia. Jane Evans (21:37) ⁓ But he spent his last few years doing very dark stand-up comedy. Jules (21:44) We probably had plenty to talk about. Gee, it’s shocking to hear about that kind of racial discrimination, isn’t it? I won’t give you blood because I don’t want to waste it. That is on a whole other level. I often when I do… Jane Evans (21:56) to an eight-year-old black kid. To an eight-year-old black kid. Jules (21:59) It’s one of the things I talk about with when I do talks is about how if we think it’s difficult as older women, imagine if you had another layer of a woman of colour or a woman with a disability or a refugee. It’s just, we are obligated to be helping those women. Jane Evans (22:18) That’s why I wrote the book with Carol Russell. As I was writing the book, Black Lives Matter came out and I was like, I can’t do this by myself. I need to get Carol’s voice out here too. I just got on the phone to her and was like, this can’t be another, the last thing the world needs is another bloody book by a white middle-class feminist. Jules (22:40) Yeah, talking about black problems. Okay, so you started as a junior art director. Tell me about that and then how you ended up coming to Australia. Jane Evans (22:53) Okay, so I lost my first job very quickly ⁓ because I was young and beautiful and nobody had mentored me. Yeah, no, I was sent on my first ever photographic shoot by myself. No idea what I was supposed to do. None, Nobody would mentor me because everybody was too afraid of being close to… Jules (22:58) Lost it. Right. Really? Jane Evans (23:20) an attractive 20 year old. So I made so many mistakes in my first job. It is not true because nobody told me, you they just sort of presumed I knew you don’t learn how to direct shoots or, you know, do the type trace ups in. Yeah, apparently. ⁓ Jules (23:37) It just comes naturally. You Jane Evans (23:43) But the biggest mistake I made was there was a lunch and everybody, like with all of the top film directors and the crowd, it was like the in crowd in advertising. And everybody put money in a pot in the middle of the table and they went, whoever can tell a joke that nobody else has heard gets the pot. Well, you can imagine, I’m the junior, I’m going for that pot with everything that I’ve got. And ⁓ so anyway, it gets to me and I’m useless at jokes, I’m really bad at them. Anyway it got to me and I went, I know, I’m just gonna tell you a joke that everybody’s heard. went, Tim can I have a pay rise? Well at that point everybody just like explodes going, give him the pot, give him the pot, give him the pot. I got fired on the Monday morning. Jules (24:34) But I can I just say thank you for doing that anyway. I was worth it just to be able to say that joke I think that’s brilliant So you got kicked out of the first job. What was the next what happened after that? Jane Evans (24:47) The next one, I went to this little agency and everybody was going, Jane, that’s the biggest mistake you’ve ever made. ⁓ Jane, you shouldn’t go there. That’s gonna be, you know, can’t go from Liga Stalini to some little place that nobody’s heard of. But it was actually the best thing I ever did. First of all, they all took the time to train me and so I got really fucking good at my job. ⁓ You know, sort of people were actually telling me what to do, taking me on shoots and you know, sort of, you know, really teaching me. ⁓ But also this funny little agency was working on something that no none of the big agencies wanted to touch with the barge pole which was these new things coming in called computers and ⁓ So I actually spent two years working on in 1983 I launched Microsoft Word version 1 and ⁓ I’ve launched every single piece of tech since and ⁓ Again, it wasn’t the ideal CV move, but it’s given me the greatest story, which I know you’ve asked me in question, so I’m going to have to tell it now. Because you actually said something that people don’t know about you. So when I presented the… ⁓ Jules (25:57) Yeah, good. Jane Evans (26:05) ⁓ Microsoft word. The document came in the night before and the secretary all the way through it, 84 pages, had written floppy dicks instead of floppy disks. Now you know back then, the 84 pages of changing with Tippex, how long that would take. I mean, it took her longer to repair it than it did to type the whole document in the first place. Jules (26:25) Yes. Jane Evans (26:32) I then go to Microsoft the next day which was this tiny little almost prefab office miles out of London and I go in there and at the time there were two computer geeks well computer geeks in 1983 I don’t think had ever seen sunlight or a woman ever they couldn’t they couldn’t handle this 21 or 21 yeah I think I was 21 22 at the time you know, gorgeous, you know, all dressed up, my first big client meeting, you know, go in there. And then I’m like, OK, so, you know, this word processing thing, I’m a secretary. Tell me how why I should give up my golf ball typewriter for this sort of clattery clattery beige thing. ⁓ And they started going, well, it’s got eight bit and 32 meg of RAM. And and I’m like. Jules (27:12) works. Jane Evans (27:28) No, sorry. You’re gonna have to do better than that. You know, I’m a secretary. Tell me, give me one good reason why as a secretary I should do this. And they just turn very dryly and went, you could have got rid of your floppy dicks in one keystroke. Jules (27:42) when you went sold. Jane Evans (27:45) Sold, sold. And then they said, our boss is in town. He’s a 27 year old millionaire. Would you like to go out on a date with him? And I was like. Jules (27:57) Stop it! You went on a date with Bill Gates! Jane Evans (28:00) No! I said no! I was going out with an underwear model that night. No fucking way was I gonna go out with some 27 year old geek. Jules (28:09) my god, that is so good. Did you meet him though? Jane Evans (28:13) No, no, but that’s my, that’s my, that’s my, you know, sort of, that’s my quirky fact is I turned down a date with Bill Gates. Jules (28:14) never got to meet him. That’s your quirky fact that you want to share. That is nearly as good as Naomi Watts turning down Tom Cruise or whatever it was. You would know that lamb. ⁓ And too, how amazing. That’s so amazing. And that you’ve worked with Microsoft ever since is also incredible. Jane Evans (28:27) Yep. Yes, slam commercial. I haven’t worked with them since. So now I’ve worked on every tech. No, no, no. I’ve worked on every single launch of tech since then. you know, starting off with computers, software, mobile, you know, phones, mobile, web, fax machines, you know, as the as the tech came in, you know, I had a brief for every single one of them. you know, I was even called in ⁓ to work on Kodak. Jules (28:42) ⁓ I thought you said every piece of software. ⁓ phones. Yeah. Jane Evans (29:11) to try and get them to understand what digital was. And this was like in 1993 and they couldn’t get it. They just couldn’t understand it. So when you always hear about the moment that Kodak lost it, it was like they weren’t listening. They should have listened. And it was really interesting in that… I was sitting… Jules (29:30) No, I remember that too. I was working with a woman and that was when we were saying, ⁓ we think cameras are gonna go on to phones and Kodak’s gonna be out of business and Kodak was going, no, no, no, we’re gonna be fine. And it was like, the writing is on the wall. Can you not see it? Jane Evans (29:47) Well, I was 14 years, this was 14 years before phones. And so the client, nobody had a concept of what digital was meaning. They’d invented the JPEG, but were trying to charge for it. I mean, it was just bizarre. And so, I was in a client meeting and the client went, okay, it’s a cup of coffee, Jane. Please explain digital like it’s a cup of coffee. And they went, okay, looks like coffee, smells like coffee. Jules (29:57) what was coming. Jane Evans (30:16) tastes like coffee, no cup. And the client just went, I give up, I give up. I have no idea what you’re talking about. And I do wonder whether 13 years later when the iPhone came out that he went, oh, no cup. Oh, I get it. Jules (31:48) Oh my god, what an amazing experience. So keep going, I want to know how you ended up in Australia for 26 years. Jane Evans (31:54) Okay, so I’ll go back to where I was. I was, you know, working on computers, then got another job at a really cool agency and got the golden ticket, which was a female creative director. Absolutely unheard of, unbelievable. It was amazing. And then she got fired and we got fired and everybody got fired. And I got headhunted to go to Australia and I was like… Absolutely. I didn’t even have to think about it. Jules (32:25) So who head hunted you? Jane Evans (32:29) a woman called Geri Dipstel ⁓ and Geri was the headhunter that brought all the top talent out from England with the view to them being creative directors. So if she ever brought anybody out, it was, this is somebody that Geri thinks is a potential creative director. you know, cause she wouldn’t just bring out anybody from London. So my first job was the Ball Partnership. Jules (32:44) as a creative. So where was your first job? Who did you work for? Jane Evans (32:54) ⁓ And I worked with a copywriter called Dana Ferzi. And I also worked with the wonderful Mara Marich, who passed away last year, unfortunately, and Sarah Barkley. So, you know, I come over to Australia after being the lone creative and, you know, to four women in the creative department was really quite incredible. I then got poached out of there and went to Bevens and had a couple of years at John Bevens. And then Jules (33:08) I’m the only woman. Jane Evans (33:24) O ⁓ early 90s, Kristen Munger, Johnny Curran… Yeah. Jules (33:28) So that’s Ogilvy and Maverick for anyone that doesn’t know it, but is this when you started doing these, working on these iconic ⁓ campaigns? Jane Evans (33:36) Not quite then, not quite then. ⁓ So ⁓ Ogilvy was fantastic. That was a 50-50. male female creative department in 1990 with the greatest creative director again since passed on and it was a purple patch. The agency was winning everything. Everybody was winning everything anywhere. ⁓ Then Martin Sorrell bought Ogilvia Mather and anybody that was any good was wiped out. And I did something that Geri had told me never to do or she’d said to me, Jane, there’s two places in Sydney that you’ll never get a job. Jules (33:47) Wow. Right. Jane Evans (34:13) One is Mojo, the other is Clemence. And the reason being is A, you’re English and B, you’re a woman. ⁓ You know, you’re not welcome in, you really won’t be welcome in those. But it was the recession we had to have. Jules (34:25) It’s just so… outrageous that that is known about an agency, isn’t it? Outrageous. Jane Evans (34:34) But it was in the middle of the recession we had to have. was Paul Keating years, interest rates are at, I think, didn’t they get up to 25 % or something ridiculous at some stage? 18%, yeah, Yeah, but it was, you know, if you didn’t have a job, you… I know. And we survived it. Oh, what a surprise. So I took a job at Clemmonshire and… Jules (34:42) 18, 18 I think, might’ve got up to 21. and everyone’s complaining about 3 % now. Jane Evans (35:00) 10 years into my career, I was the first woman in a creative department again. Jules (35:06) And did they make your life hell or were they great? Jane Evans (35:09) It was war. It was absolute war. It was war. Jules (35:13) Boys club closed ranks, I’m sure. Jane Evans (35:17) awful. was one of the worst experiences of my life. was just atrocious. was just, yeah, it was absolutely awful. ⁓ To the point that it almost killed my career. Jules (35:26) I’ll tell you something that as well, Jane, know, we in Australia, we’ve gone from 43rd in the world two years ago for gender equality to 26th in the world this this year, 2025, when the, you know, I mean, we’re down there with a lot of countries we shouldn’t be considering we’re fourth in the world for tertiary education. So I’m kind of, I just think there’s so much unconscious bias going on in Australia that people are just so unaware of. Jane Evans (36:02) this was an unconscious and one of the things that I say is is one of the things that I say is I think that the reason why there were more female creatives in Australia was because it was so overt that you could batter off you could see it you knew what it was whereas in UK it’s so gaslit it’s so so gaslit so it was easy it was easier to deal with but a consolidated attack was just unbearable Jules (36:04) This sounds very effort! subtle. Jane Evans (36:31) absolutely unbearable. So I actually got very ill. Everybody thought it was the end of my career, wasn’t going to come back. And Jerry, who, you know, believed in me all the way was, was like found a creative director that would understand exactly what had happened to me, got me the job. ⁓ And it was like I got in there and they were like, OK, Jane, your choice of copyright, any copyright you want, you can choose. Jules (36:42) God lover. Jane Evans (37:01) And so I was like, well, it’s got to be a woman. And I wanted Jane Caro because Jane Caro had been at ⁓ Campaign Palace. She’d stopped to have her kids. Yeah. Jules (37:10) Stop it! I didn’t know she was in advertising. I only know her as a public figure. Jane Evans (37:16) So she had been at the campaign palace, got fired when she was pregnant and I was like, I want Jane Caro. And Jane Caro was like, well, I’m sorry, but I’ll only work three days a week, ⁓ five hours a day from like nine till two or something. And so I was like, yeah, fine. Absolutely no problems with that. to the creative director and said, I found a copywriter. She’s coming in three days a week, 15 hours a week. And he was like, okay, if you can make it work. And so basically I said to Jane, when you’re in, we do the creative work and I’ll do all the other shit. So I’ll do all the meetings, I’ll do all the selling, I’ll do all of that. ⁓ we had, then the creative director got sick and left, like disappeared one day, one day, no more creative director. And we’d just been given the brief for dry washing powder. And so… We go along to the meeting with no creative director, nobody ahead of us. First time in our career, like, okay, we’re gonna have to step up here, so turn up to the meeting, doing what we were. We turn up at the meeting, there was a, the client was a 55-year-old woman about to retire. Her name was Fran Mayne Boyle. She took one look at us. She went, this is the first time in the whole of my career I’ve ever had senior women. She got the brief, she ripped it up and went, don’t give me two cunts in the kitchen. Jules (38:21) We’re doing what we want! love her! my god. Jane Evans (38:49) So we created the drive campaign, which ⁓ showed ⁓ men doing the laundry. We had a commercial called Lipstick where a guy got a telephone number and his flatmate washed it off. Jules (38:58) Yep, I remember that one. Jane Evans (39:01) The campaign also showed the first divorced couple ever on television. People were ringing the station going, thank you. This is the first time we’ve seen each other. We said we showed the first commercial that actually showed an unmarried couple living together. And this campaign was it was it was remade around the world. It was remade in London, you know, which for an advertising creative in Australia to have your campaign remade from Omo in London. Jules (39:17) anything. Yes! Jane Evans (39:31) is enormous. was remade in South America. Jules (39:33) Massive. Absolutely massive. Because all the campaigns really come the other way, don’t they? mean, people are expecting that we’re going to copy something from the UK, not the other way around. Love it. Jane Evans (39:44) Yeah. Yeah. And the first set of awards that we won were the television awards. And at one stage they were like, don’t even bother getting off the stage. I was like, I actually walked out that evening like this with trophies. And then it came to award and we got a bronze. And I’m like, no, I’m sorry. We’ve got boys. Come on. Jules (39:59) Ha ha! Jane Evans (40:12) Come on, a bronze really? That’s all you’re gonna give us? Then at Cannes, we got nothing. And somebody at Cannes got nothing. Then somebody… I can’t remember who it was who was in the jury room said that when your commercials came up the South Americans all claimed that they were theirs that it originated in South America and the Australian judge who knew both Jane and I very very well kept quiet so it never actually got into judging because the South Americans claimed it as their own so anyway despite not winning, you know, Cannes, it was still seen as, you know, it was a groundbreaking commercial that everybody was talking about, or groundbreaking campaign that everybody was talking about. So we got our meeting with Gerry. Now there was always this, you know, this is what you worked for in advertising, was once you got the campaign, once you did it, it was like the offers come in, your salary skyrockets, everything’s fantastic. So. Jules (41:18) Yeah. Jane Evans (41:21) Go to Cherry, who’s always been absolutely completely and utterly honest with us. And she goes, Jane, I’m really, really sorry. Or both, Jane’s really, really sorry, but the guys have actually ganged up and decided there will never be a female creative director in Sydney, so forget about it. Jules (41:40) You must have wanted to just explode. So did that prompt you to start your own agency? Jane Evans (41:49) Yeah, I was 35. was like, said I was I said I was going to have the title by the time I was 35 and I demoed it. So I bought a massive two and a half thousand square meter warehouse, ⁓ set up my agency downstairs and started my family upstairs. And. Jules (42:03) Right. Jane Evans (42:10) ⁓ started with James Squire beer, I’d created. So we’d already worked at principles with Jack Vaughan and Jack and I had actually created the whole concept. We’d found out about James Squire. We designed the bottles. We did all of that. ⁓ But it was the Lion Nathan at the time basically said to Chuck Hawn, we’ll give you your brewery back. ⁓ You’ve got two years. Don’t lose more than two million, two million dollars. ⁓ So it was a tiny brewery, tiny budget principles Jules (42:28) Yes. Jane Evans (42:40) that are being working on it, we can’t work at those sort of So you have our blessing, take it, take it and off you go. So I founded the, the, the, ⁓ founded with James Squire Beer. got Maserati as a client. I had Revlon as a client. I had Katie’s as a client. I had the Guide Dogs as a client. In 2019, we were the 19th most awarded agency in the Asia Pacific region. ⁓ Jules (42:59) Amazing. Jane Evans (43:10) only independent on the list. ⁓ And pretty much. Jules (43:10) my god! Sorry, no, no, I’m just because my brother was working at an agency that was winning at that time that you might know, Chris Jeffers from, or CJ from Cummins Partners. That’s my baby brother. So I was kind of aware of little bits that were going on, but how amazing. So 2019 comes, and this is the year before the big pandemic. So I’m interested to hear what was the next step for you after winning all this stuff. Jane Evans (43:24) Yep. Yes. All right. Yeah, so it’s doing really well. Oh, well, that was a long time ago. So winning all of that, that was early 2000s. No, no, this was early 2000s. So 1990, 1995 was 90. Sorry, 1996 was when Jeremy, Jerry basically said, can’t be creative. So I set up my agency in 1997 and in 2001. Jules (43:49) Oh, I thought you said it was 2019. Sorry. Alright, okay. Jane Evans (44:14) It was the 19th most awarded, that’s where it’s come from. So until 2001, it was the 19th most awarded agency in the South Pacific region. So, I was heading to be the next David, Jokah 5. mean, we were really, and 90 % female agency, like 90 % female. It was all going brilliantly, unfortunately. Jules (44:17) Right. Which is amazing. Yes! Jane Evans (44:41) father of my children and my partner was a sociopath and we didn’t know this until the business got very until the business got successful I had business advisors and financial advisors and they went through all my tax and everything and went Jane do you realize that every single property you own is in your partner’s name but every single mortgage is in yours and Jules (44:46) dear. Jane! You’d let him run the finances! Jane Evans (45:12) A lot of women of my era did that because none of us had any financial. It’s not ignorance or stupidity. It was we had no financial, none, education. And my business partner, most of us don’t, nobody ever talked to us. Jules (45:24) I know, I still have none, but I did the finances. Go on. Jane Evans (45:31) Well, I learnt very quickly after that, you know, this is, you know, the father of your children. You know, when you’re signing documents, you expect that they’re, you you’re not looking through the fine print because this is somebody you trust. ⁓ Anyway. Yes, modern women will be listening to this going, you fucking idiot. Well, first of all, my accountants was, well, everything that James put down in the books as a mortgage payment now has to go as rent and you have to pay the tax on it. Jules (45:45) Yeah, so shit, what did you do? Jane Evans (46:00) So he got handed a 20,000 dollar tax bill. ⁓ And that’s when he turned violent. So like most sociopaths, he was on a very long grift. He was going to take everything from me. ⁓ And when he was discovered, he turned violent. So, you know. I basically had to walk away from the big agency, the big warehouse, ⁓ and start again as a cottage industry, as a single mother. Now, fortunately, I had got a great reputation. And this was, know, sort of, ⁓ so what we split up in 2002. ⁓ Jules (46:21) my god. Jane Evans (46:42) And for 2002 till 2013, was very much the trend in advertising worldwide that people specialize. So for the next 10 years, I created 18 craft beers. I was the craft beer queen. It was just, you know, I was making craft beers for all around the world. Jules (46:59) Right. As the wave is growing. Jane Evans (47:04) as the wave is Jules (47:04) Right. Jane Evans (47:04) growing. You know, because I created Craft Beer Full, there was even a category. So like in 1997, there was no such thing as craft beer. So we actually created a category as well as a beer. And I don’t drink beer. I fucking hate beer. And I was bored, stupid of creating beers. Jules (47:09) Yes! Can I tell you something? My best friend is a female beer rep and was selling James Squire and got two-ies into Oxford Street and was their number one sales rep roughly the same time that you were busy doing, I think it was 2001, something like that. Jane Evans (47:40) Well, she would have seen the big trick that we got that got James Squire into all the pubs. ⁓ t-shirts for the female bar staff. At the time, all promotional t-shirts were massive, great big, extra, extra large t-shirts. And we made… Jules (47:46) Which was what? Right. Jane Evans (48:01) Female I said, you know half of half of bar staff a female they’re not gonna want to wear that shit Let’s make something that the women want to wear. So when the reps went in, you know, they’ve got you well, here’s your to ease t-shirt and ⁓ Here’s your beautiful James Squire one and you know, they would getting the bit they were bringing the beer into the pub because the female bar staff wanted the t-shirts Jules (48:25) Wow, isn’t that amazing? That is amazing. Okay, so now we’re at around, like we’re gonna run out of time because I just wanna hear all of it. So we’re at 2002 and we need to get to 2024 in about 15 minutes. So tell me what happened next. Jane Evans (48:41) All right, well, we’ve sort of been there before. So we’ve sort of been there before. 2013, I came back to Australia, to same campaign back. Jules (48:44) okay. Jane Evans (48:52) And so, you are up to date on the story. So we’re back at the seventh tribe now. So we’ve gone from advertising, we’ve gone into activism, written a book, set up, you know, sort of things to, you know, employment programs and things for midlife women. Now we’re in 20, 25, I think. And, you know, I. Jules (49:10) So, okay, well, let’s just do a little bit now on the seventh tribe and Uninvisible and Visible Inc and what you’re doing because it’s absolutely my passion is getting older women out there in the media, not necessarily in advertising, but I’m trying to do it through PR, but also encouraging them and saying, you’ve got to push yourselves out there. Girls cannot see women out there, older women who are successful and we need to show them that they can do anything they want. Jane Evans (49:42) Look, one of the major reasons was the book is invisible to invaluable unleashing the power of midlife women. ⁓ I believe that in the 10 years that I’ve been campaigning, midlife women are more visible. I think after getting arguments, I think we are seen as more invaluable. I’m now at the point of, let’s unleash the power of midlife women. And there has never been a time in the world where we are needed more than we are now. So you can hear from my life story. I’ve been through quite a few things. If you actually look at us, we have been through, we have seen in the world everything that is going on. Jules (50:03) Yes! Jane Evans (50:19) at the moment. We’ve seen genocides, we’ve seen terror attacks, we’ve seen, know, we’ve seen, you know, crashes in economy, we’ve seen tic-tacers, we’ve seen new tech come in and the effect that it has on… Yeah, we’ve seen new tech coming in and how it affects society. So although we’ve never seen it all happening everywhere at once, which is what it appears to be, we have seen it. Jules (50:25) dictators. We’ve seen idiots running America. All of it. Jane Evans (50:45) The other thing is, is we are the matriarchs. We’re in a patriarchal fucking system and we don’t call ourselves matriarchs. That’s stupid. A matriarch is equal to a patriarch and the matriarchs, which are the most senior women wherever they are, they don’t have to be a mother, a matriarch, you know, you can be a matriarch at school if you’re the most senior person in the class. You know, it was like, it is the most senior woman in any community. If we all start coming together and singing from the same voice, Jules (50:57) Yes. Jane Evans (51:15) have control over the whole world. in Europe a woman over 50 is 28 % of the population. If she has a partner and two children she has direct loving control over a hundred and twelve percent of the population. So one of the things about the seventh tribe is to get women, to get the matriarchs telling Jules (51:34) Wow, that’s good. Jane Evans (51:44) different stories, telling a different story, telling a story of what the world could be. So one of the things that we’re doing is we’re setting up, is we’re doing a social imagination project. So in the 60s, we all had visions of, know, we’d watch Star Trek with them with flip phones, and now the flip phones are here. ⁓ You know, so we haven’t got the flying cars and the jetpacks. Jules (51:49) of strength. Yeah. Jane Evans (52:08) But growing up as a society, we all had a view that the world was getting better and more exciting. Now here we are in 2025. We can’t even see one generation ahead of a more positive future. So we’re setting up, we’re hoping to start in September, a social imagination project where first of all, we let the matriarchs know what’s coming in tech because the only people that know the amazing things that are happening in tech are the people developing it. like Microsoft’s… in 1983, they couldn’t explain what they were doing in terms that we would understand. So, you know, the first thing is, let’s see what’s coming. Now, all of this tech needs massive societal change for it to work. And we should be leading. Jules (52:59) or it will bring around massive societal. Jane Evans (53:04) Yeah. So we need to have a vision of the future. but also be able to take action to make it happen. So this is what the Social Imagination Project is all about. We’re going to get people coming in and going, know, this is what quantum computing is going to mean to everything. You know, this is what gene research is going to do so that we can actually get this sense of, wow, this is what’s coming. Then we tell stories, we write books, you know, we start imagining what this future looks like for people in Jules (53:24) Right, brilliant. Jane Evans (53:38) humans, ⁓ especially what does the world look like when we don’t have to work? There are so many things, without looking, ⁓ it’s already here, it’s already here. So ⁓ what does society look like? What does education look like? What does health look like? What does all, but what do we as human beings look like with this new technology? Now, then. Jules (53:44) which I think is coming sooner than people think too. Jane Evans (54:04) When everybody goes for Sunday lunch or Thanksgiving or Christmas or whatever, if the matriarch’s going, do you know gene therapy can do this? And do you know that we’re all going to be living till we’re 200 years old? And did you know that quantum community, now I thought that quantum, this week Google announced the birth of quantum chips. The birth of quantum computing is now here. And they have proved. Jules (54:12) Yeah. Jane Evans (54:30) that and so basically and you know I had to listen to you know probably two hours of a geek to get to sort of what it is so computers are binary zeros and ones zeros and ones zeros and ones well what happens if it could be a zero or a one and a zero or a one Jules (54:38) They’re not of at all. Jane Evans (54:48) and then all of the computations of that spread out, spread out, spread out all of a sudden means that they can now compute something that would take the greatest supercomputer on earth right now 25 years to compute. know, we can, you could get… Jules (55:07) Wow, they’re be able to do it. Like that. Jane Evans (55:15) health data on absolutely every single person suffering from it. And it can start looking, you so it can do things that it’s going to be able to do things that humans can’t do. Absolutely incredible, really exciting. But where are the morals? Where are the ethics? Where’s the how’s this going to change society? Jules (55:32) going to be used for good. Jane Evans (55:34) How is it going to be used for good? What are we going to do? How are we going to fit in with it? How can we? So there are so many questions that everybody should be talking about and everybody should be pushing for. And I think that in these times, the matriarchs have so much power to direct the way the world’s going. So we need to do this. So the Seventh Tribe, it’s so dimensional. Jules (55:54) Yes. Jane Evans (56:03) So one of the things that we’re doing is there are so many women that want to set up businesses, but they can’t afford to. come on, the seventh tribe, we’ve got it all set up, set up your own circle. So we’ve got one woman in the visible start course. The first three weeks of each course was just giving women a great big hug and going, you’re all right. It’s not just you, it’s society, it’s a system. It’s not you. ⁓ You’re great, you’re wonderful, you’ve got confidence. So she set up a business. Jules (56:24) my god. Jane Evans (56:28) ⁓ subscription site where you can go in and have a monthly account. But it’s almost like having a coach when you can’t afford to have a coach. Instead of 250 pounds a month, it’s 20 pounds for five pounds a month, you’re in with a cohort of other women. and she set this up for no money. was like she doesn’t have to, it’s all there. Here it is, start your circle. ⁓ We’ve got another circle. Jules (56:37) Yeah. Love it. Fantastic. So if somebody’s listening, so if someone’s listening and they want to join in, because it sounds friggin’ amazing, what’s the best way, and also how do people, if you want to, if someone wants to contact you or get in touch, what are the things, obviously this is going out on the internet, so don’t put anything that you don’t want other people to know, but how first do they get involved in the Seventh Tribe? Jane Evans (57:11) Okay Okay, so go to the seventh tribe comm and you’ll see a thing called join a circle Seventh yes, so the seven th tribe comm ⁓ Jules (57:18) And seventh is the number. Jane Evans (57:27) If you go in there, first of all, there’s lots of really fun things like you go become a goddess. It was like, you you can we’ll actually send you a goddess that you can use as your your thing. So you can come in and just sort of look at we have a daily goddess inspiration email that goes out, which is sort of a daily motivation with a soundtrack as well, because I want to get women in tune. ⁓ We have monthly New Moon meetings where I give a little fire talk and then we have a sound bath. ⁓ You know, so there’s lots and lots of things to do in it. But It’s also a cover. All of this goddess stuff is actually a cover for subversive action. So there’s a thing in there, go join a goddess circle. If you go on that page, it shows you all different goddess circles that you can join. And, you know, if you want to talk about what’s happening in the Holy Land, if you want to talk about what’s happening in America, if you want to talk about what’s happening on social. So at the moment we’re using. Jules (58:20) Okay, so these are like chat circles. Jane Evans (58:23) No, there are actually mini microsites. it’s almost like you’re a part of a group and on that microsite are all the files ⁓ that we can hold events. So there’s so much more than a WhatsApp group. ⁓ Jules (58:35) my god, I’ll have to go in and have a look. Jane Evans (58:38) Yeah, so you can go in there and so for instance, so it’s been interesting. I spent six months building it. I had the absolute perfect launch plan. ⁓ I was talking at the Unlikable Women’s ⁓ Conference, which if you want to go and see that speech and I would recommend all midlife women go and spend 35 minutes listening to that speech. It’s on the homepage. ⁓ As I was like, great, fantastic, launch. This is the great way to do it. ⁓ And then my LinkedIn. tanked like I’ve got 16,000 followers Yeah, so I’ve got 16,000 followers that well and yeah, so ⁓ I’ve got 16,000 followers I was reaching 200 people but Cindy when she was moaning that she was getting 43 views on a post I would repost it and get 30,000 impressions and so I’m like Hold on a minute. Yeah Jules (59:10) this is what you’ve been posting about. Yes, I’ve seen some of this. And Cindy Gallups as well. Yep. Really? Jane Evans (59:35) So I was like, hold on a minute, what’s going on here? You know, first of all, LinkedIn. Jules (59:39) Because I did go to LinkedIn and say, well, I’ve gone from 5,000 to 11,500 and my reach has gone probably halved in that time, if not more. But they’re saying, well, you just need to do more engaging posts. And I’m like, I haven’t really changed anything. So, all right, well. Jane Evans (59:57) No, the algorithm has changed and LinkedIn are denying it. But, and this is what the seventh tribe is all about. We took everybody off the algorithm, away from the algorithm and went, right, here’s a fucking problem. What are we going to do about it? So. I did experiments basically with my content. It was like, do selfies work? Does this work? So just putting out all this various content. I held a wrangling the algorithm session of which the 134 women came up and we just looked at all the different things that were happening. And I went, I got my reach up from 2000 impressions a week to 180,000 impressions a week. But then I started questioning, yeah, but what’s actually going viral? Jules (1:00:19) Yeah? Jane Evans (1:00:45) and it brought up some really, really interesting. So ⁓ I had a post that had 110,000 views and it was me pissed off, disheveled, makeup free, ⁓ selfie, and, you know, basically moaning that my 26 year old daughter had just lost her job. to add to my 23 year old daughter that hasn’t got a job. And the fact that, you I’d heard of three women that I’d got jobs that had lost them in the last week. And I’m like, hold on a minute, there’s a fucking social disaster happening here is that if there are no jobs for young people and women are being laid off, then we are, we are. Jules (1:01:26) Fucked. Jane Evans (1:01:27) dooming these women to a lifetime in poverty. They can’t downsize. There’s no benefits that cover for having a grown adult still at home at 24. And so, and then I realized… I looked at afterwards and first of all this was the only post that was shown to men all of whom offered my children jobs didn’t seem to notice that no the problem is is that the women don’t have the jobs you know the kids are only gonna get an entry-level job that ain’t gonna keep London rent but you know this completely over the top of like you don’t give a shit about you’re not listening you’re not understanding what the problem is but also it was like ⁓ so Jules (1:01:59) That’s right. Jane Evans (1:02:10) the midlife crisis thing only works. If I do an empowered selfie, it gets absolutely nothing. But when I’m pissed off and angry and vulnerable, it gets the views. So we went and started doing more experiments. And Matt Lawton from Australia actually messaged Cindy and I and went, would you like me to see if it makes a difference when men and women post? And so we did this one experiment. We weren’t even testing for whether it was male or female. Jules (1:02:36) I was shocked, absolutely shocked that somebody posted those results and I’ve saved it on my LinkedIn feed. I’m shocked at the difference. ⁓ But you know, Jane, we’re going to have to wind it up. ⁓ I could keep talking to you obviously for hours. I am sure anyone listening is going to go, ⁓ my God, I need to go and connect with this woman. Thank you. Jane Evans (1:02:48) It’s- You Jules (1:03:01) beyond thank you and I absolutely need to catch up with you outside of this podcast as well because you’re extraordinary and you’re great fun and I want to thank you so much for agreeing to do this interview. Jane Evans (1:03:14) Absolutely. It’s been fun.