– Women for Homes aims to inspire a million women to invest in affordable housing. – Dionne believes in creating a new system rather than fixing the old one. The gender pay gap significantly contributes to women’s homelessness. Women over 50 are the fastest-growing group of homeless individuals in Australia. – Dionne’s journey into property development began with a desire to make money and create a legacy. Ethical property investing can be financially sustainable and impactful. – Dionne emphasises the importance of values alignment in partnerships. The podcast serves as a resource for women to share stories and gain knowledge. – Dionne’s experience in property development taught her valuable lessons about project management. Women for Homes is not just about investment; it’s a movement for systemic change.

00:00 Empowering Women to End Homelessness 02:56 Disrupting the Property Investment Model 05:53 The Importance of Women in Housing 08:54 Understanding the Gender Pay Gap and Homelessness 12:03 The Role of Women for Homes 14:59 Dionne’s Journey: From Childhood to Career 18:06 Navigating Education and Early Career Choices 21:04 Transitioning to Property Development 23:53 Exploring New Zealand and Australia 24:32 Cultural Transition: From New Zealand to Australia 27:14 PhD Journey: Balancing Academia and Motherhood 30:45 Entering the Property Market: A New Venture 35:53 Scaling Up: From Small Projects to Larger Developments 39:37 Lessons Learned: Navigating Challenges in Property Development 42:35 Values in Business: The Importance of Alignment 44:22 Building a Community: Affordable Housing Initiatives

Jules (00:13) Hi and welcome to this episode of She’s the Boss Disruptors and I’m interviewing the amazing Dion Payne from Women for Homes. I met Dion, I think it was a couple of years ago now, Dion was it? And you told me your story and what you were doing or a little bit of it and I was completely hooked so I know everyone else will be hooked as well. But let’s just start off by getting you to introduce yourself and tell us what do you do and what your business actually is. Dionne Payn (00:25) Yeah. Sure thing. Well, I am the founder of an organization called Women for Homes and we exist to inspire a million women to invest $5,000 to end homelessness by 2030. And we do that through ensuring that the women that invest are financially empowered along the way. So what we do at Women for Homes is we have, we have a opportunities to invest into affordable, sustainable and inclusive homes. And we also ⁓ offer education as well. And we work, I have the financially empowered women podcast, which I interview some amazing women who are doing great things in the finance space and educating. And it’s really for me about making sure that we have like a digital campfire where women can share their stories and other women that may Jules (01:14) Yep. Brilliant. Yeah. Dionne Payn (01:38) going through things that need that advice or guidance, they can listen to the podcasts and they can reach out to the experts that we have if they need to. Jules (01:48) my God, I love it, love it, love it. I’ve already just thought of someone I’m gonna have to introduce you to. But in the meantime, I know that you’ve worked in the industry in terms of raising investment for buildings for a long time. So can you tell us a little bit about the disruptive kind of aspect of what you’re doing? Because I think you are doing something really different. So is there something broken in the system that needs fixing? Dionne Payn (02:16) Yes, Jules (02:16) Leading question, but… Dionne Payn (02:16) yes. It’s really interesting because on Tuesday I run the Ethical Property Investor Accelerator and the theme for Tuesday’s lesson was legacy and I gave the quote from Buckminster Fuller that was there’s no point in railing against the existing system just create a new one that makes the old one obsolete. Jules (02:29) night. Dionne Payn (02:43) and I do really believe that that’s what we’re doing here at Women for Homes. look. Jules (02:43) Love that. Dionne Payn (02:48) Bit of background about me and how I got into this. I have been in the development industry for a long time, so over 10 years. I started off as a property developer and did a series of small developments, renovations and subdivisions, which then led me to do an affordable housing project, which was 14 one bedroom townhouses. And what was cool about that was that there were small homes, there were 60 square meters. They were in the right zoning, so we got relaxations. Jules (03:09) Okay. Dionne Payn (03:18) on the number of car parks and the number of homes that we could get on the site. So it worked for us financially. So we got a great return as investors into the project. And also there was a really beautiful legacy that we were able to create for the community. Now in full transparency, I didn’t go into it thinking, this is going to be a great legacy. I went into it thinking I’m going to make a mozza. But along the way, I realized that we could do both. And that was the first time in my property development journey that I Jules (03:23) Right? Yeah. Dionne Payn (03:48) that yeah okay we can do something that’s really meaningful for a lot of people because when we get housing right it is really transformative but we can also make money too and actually it’s really important that we do because of that financial sustainability and what I mean by that is when you make money on one thing you can do something else, do something else, increase the level of impact whereas if you do property investment in the traditional way which is you know buying a house, negatively gearing it, negative gearing hurts Jules (04:06) Yeah. Dionne Payn (04:18) people entering property, the negative giving laws hurt people getting into property in the first instance, but it also hurts you as an investor because it puts a cap on what you can, the number of properties that you can purchase. Whereas doing what I’m talking about, which is ethical property investing, you can keep doing it because it’s cash flow positive and you’re helping a lot of people and it feels really good. Jules (04:30) right And so what I know that you’ve and I’m going to get you to take me right back to when you were a little girl and how your career has progressed in a minute. But I’m interested to know how the model is different and you’ve sort of touched on it that currently in terms of building properties people are just building them in order to make some money and there’s a cap on it. But what led you to particularly want to help women? Why is that? Why is this called Women for Homes? And what are you trying to do to actually break what has been out there for a very, very long time? Dionne Payn (05:15) Yeah, well… Why women? I had an experience about this time last year where I went on a retreat and the retreat was fantastic and you know being out in nature and having really nourishing food and doing all these wonderful practices. It just gave me the time away to sit and be still and really contemplate the direction that I was going in and I remember being surrounded by all of these women who when I talk about my business because it was a marketing and branding retreat so we were learning different ways to do marketing. Jules (05:23) Yeah. Yeah. Dionne Payn (05:47) And so when I spoke to these women that were also on the course, they were saying things like, this is amazing, we’d love to be involved, how can we be involved? And I knew that what I was doing at that time in terms of raising capital. Jules (05:48) Yeah. Dionne Payn (06:01) only really worked for what we call wholesale investors. So those that are high net worth individuals that could put, you know, $50,000 minimum on the table. So when I looked around at this group of women, I was like, they’re beautiful women and they want to be involved. But I knew that that sort of investment point was going to be quite a challenge for many of them. So I just, you know, sort of pondered and, you know, being on the retreat, I was like, well, what’s missing? And I realised that actually Jules (06:06) Right. too high. Yeah. Dionne Payn (06:32) we need a way to make this an everybody’s solution. So since the affordable housing project that I did and completed back in 2018, I’ve been thinking, you know, how do we solve this housing crisis? What are the levers that we can pull to make this work? And done it. Jules (06:45) Yeah, because for anybody who’s listening, I don’t know if you realize that women over 50 are the fastest growing group of homelessness in Australia. And I know about five years ago, someone said to me, there are 16,000 women sleeping in their cars or on the streets. ⁓ At the moment, I imagine that’s growing. So it is a huge issue just in case anybody is listening and doesn’t know that. ⁓ So go on. Yeah. Dionne Payn (06:55) Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and that’s a great segue because when I was sitting down after the retreat, I knew I had to do something. And I was sitting down after the retreat just thinking, OK, what can I do? What can I do? And I knew it had to be around women because being on the retreat with women was fabulous. And I was like, yeah, we can we can really do something if we could harness that little bit of energy that was in that particular room at that time. but, you we expand that and we can harness all of these women. What can we do? So that that was really exciting for me. But at the Jules (07:34) Yeah. Dionne Payn (07:42) time, and I wasn’t sure what it was going to be, like I said, I knew I had to do something, in the business plan, in the preparing for Women for Homes. I’d kind of done all the regular things in the business plan. like, okay, well if we can get women to invest more amounts of money, how many women do we need? But I also wanted to look at, why are women ending up homeless in the first place? And I knew about the gender pay gap. That’s been something that’s been very advertised. But I didn’t know how many things kind of spilled out of that and how many things compounded that. So for example, when you Jules (08:06) in the first place, yeah. Yeah. Dionne Payn (08:23) got two graduates and they’re entering the workforce, a man and a woman, the man is more likely to negotiate to increase his salary, the woman is less likely to, so that sets up the disparity right at the beginning and then when women take time out of the workforce to raise families then you know they’re not being paid for the work that they’re doing even though studies have shown that if Jules (08:33) Yeah. Dionne Payn (08:48) if all of these jobs that women do when they take care of their children, if they were all outsourced, it would be a $200,000 a year job. Jules (08:57) And I think almost every woman who’s a parent knows that. I know, it’s crazy, isn’t it? It’s crazy, the devaluation of something that is so important. Dionne Payn (09:00) Yes, yes absolutely but it’s so crazy but… Yes, yeah. And that study actually came from an insurance company. So it’s not just random women making this up to make themselves feel good. It came from an insurance company. They do it every year. And so… Yeah, just seeing all of these different disparities, the taking time out of the workforce, the sandwich generation, so those women that are looking after older parents now, as well as looking after children, the children that are staying home for longer because they can’t afford to get out, women’s natural inclination to look after everybody other than themselves, and then throw in a divorce and separation. it’s just like, ⁓ take on this by the end of this research was like, Jules (09:33) as well. Dionne Payn (09:52) We are properly screwed and nobody is talking about this. ⁓ Me too, me too. Jules (09:54) We really are, yeah. I couldn’t agree more. So I’m glad you’re doing something about an aspect of it. Dionne Payn (10:03) When I thought about doing the podcast, I’d been thinking about doing a podcast for a while, and I was thinking about it, was like, it’s gonna be a lot of work, ⁓ I don’t know. But the message, the little kind of in my ear was like, you gotta do it, you gotta do it, and I’m so glad I did, because I’ve met so many amazing women, we’ve had so many great guests on, covering a range of topics from divorce and super funds and property and so much more. I’ve been educated, Jules (10:31) Yeah. Dionne Payn (10:33) ⁓ big time and there were things that I didn’t even know and you know times that I was like wow thank you for sharing and I realized as well as a result of doing that podcast that it’s a resource that I can share I can share with my immediate friends I had a friend that was going through something and she was explaining and I said you’ve got to listen to this podcast and as a result of taking action on that podcast it changed the trajectory of her working environment and the ripple effect on her family was immense so Jules (10:39) What? Yes. Brilliant. Dionne Payn (11:03) this is what we do really well as women. So I just, I love what I do, I love what I do with Women for Homes and the disruptive part of it is it’s about women taking their own power, not… relying on, okay, well I’m getting this advice from this place and this advice from this place and they are right. It’s really about, well, let me arm myself with all of the information that I will need that’s relevant to my situation. Let me hear something that will give me a different viewpoint and a different way of looking at the situation and then from there I can take action. So that’s the disruptive part. how I see women for homes is it’s not just a way to invest into affordable housing. It’s actually, it’s a movement. Jules (11:45) Yes. Dionne Payn (11:45) it’s combining the, you know, let’s make a systemic change and also let’s be financially empowered as well. Jules (11:54) Yeah, and I think it’s so important these days particularly that we don’t sit around and wait for somebody to help us or somebody to make those changes. We just take it into our own hands. Just a quick aside though, are you only taking investors as women or have you got, is the investment side of it gender neutral and it’s just about serving women or are you only looking for female investors as well? Dionne Payn (12:16) So, Women for Homes is about women investing into affordable and sustainable homes. The homes are available for everybody and how I see this is we need a diverse range of homes across what we call the housing continuum. So all the way from social housing up to downsize of housing and even end of life care. We need to increase the supply of houses across that continuum because if we don’t then it means that people are trapped in, for example, Jules (12:23) Right. okay. Dionne Payn (12:46) somebody living in a very big house, they want to be able to downsize and live in the area that they raise their children in, but they can’t move because they can’t find anything that is the right size for them. So Women for Homes is all about providing right sized homes across the housing continuum. Now the language that I use is all about women. Jules (13:03) Okay. ⁓ Dionne Payn (13:08) If men were to invest in that, I don’t think I’d have an issue with that. It’s just that I’m not speaking to that particular audience. But if men just think, gosh, this really moves me and I want to invest, we’ve got a big problem. We’ve got a housing crisis to sort out. I’m not really there to be turning money away. But it’s just, who am I talking to? It’s women. Jules (13:14) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, so my next question is, was there a light bulb moment? Was there something specific that happened that made you go, okay, I’ve got to do it now? And I mean, because the retreat to me sounds like quite a pivotal moment for you. But I think you’d started Women for Homes before that, hadn’t you? I thought the retreat was last year. No. Dionne Payn (13:47) No, no. It was… Yeah, yeah, so the retreat was last year, last November, and I started Women for Homes in the January. Jules (13:53) Right. my goodness, I didn’t realise it was that new. Crazy, okay. Dionne Payn (13:58) Yeah, yeah. I’ve been raising money, so I have a business called High Impact Property Investments which has been running for five years. So I’ve been raising money for affordable and sustainable homes for that period of time. But yeah, Women for Homes as the sort of sister of that organisation only started in January. Jules (14:06) Right. Wow, well, I feel very privileged that I’ve got you early, because I’m sure it’s going to be huge. OK, so now I’m incredibly nosy, and I love listening to people tell me about their life. So I want to go back. I can hear an English accent with you, and I do know that you’ve come over from England. But can we go right back to when you were, eight or nine? I want to know, did you go to school? Did you love school? Did you hate school? Do you have brothers and sisters? And what your parents did? Dionne Payn (14:23) Yeah. Yeah, okay, so I’m the eldest of six children. I have two brothers and three sisters. They are all very cool and all, yeah, they’re just great. And they live in, yeah, they live within a sort 10 kilometer radius of where we grew up. So every time I go home, I’m like, I’m so grateful because I don’t have to travel far to see everybody. Jules (14:51) wow. Yep. You ⁓ I’m sure that’s not the only reason but where is home? Where did you grow up? Dionne Payn (15:18) So I grew up just outside of Birmingham in the UK and we were in suburbia, there wasn’t really that much to do. But I was actually talking to my daughter and I was thinking that I’m so glad that we didn’t have mobile phones. We just had walkmans, I remember having my walkman and listening to tapes and things, but that whole digital aspect and being online, that wasn’t part of my childhood. Jules (15:21) Right. Haha Yeah. Dionne Payn (15:48) very grateful for that. And yeah, I loved school. I love, love, school. I just, yeah, I was one of those smart kids, not too smart that was completely inaccessible, but smart and friendly. So I had lots of friends, but also when I needed to knuckle down to work, I could do that. Jules (16:01) Right. Wow, okay, so I presume you loved secondary school as well and was that the local school to where your family is now? Dionne Payn (16:13) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, the local comp. Tiverdale comprehensive. Jules (16:19) Right, comprehensive. Okay, so what happened when you got to year 12 and you finished school? Was there a natural ⁓ urge to go to uni? Well, actually, I’ll tell you, actually, let’s just go back a bit. You didn’t tell me what your parents do and I’m only interested from the role modelling point of view as to what the expectations would have been on you and maybe what your parents sort of did and you were watching. Dionne Payn (16:48) Yeah, okay, so both my parents worked. My mum was a nurse and she used to work night shifts so she could be there for us during the day. And my dad was a bathroom fitter, so he would have bathrooms and, you know, sort of bathroom fittings loaded in the back of his van and he’d drive all up and down the country to go and fit bathrooms. Jules (17:09) installing bathrooms. Dionne Payn (17:11) I loved going to work with my dad. Sometimes I’d be lucky enough to go with him and I remember, you know, we’d stop off at these like, frock stop sandwich places and we’d get these like, big sandwiches and you know, the Twix bar and the Canna Coke. Jules (17:21) Yes. Or in England the sandwich with a bag of chips in it. Yeah, it’s a real English thing is those bag of crisps with your sandwich. Dionne Payn (17:31) Yes, yes, good times. It’s such a good thing. And now I’m gluten intolerant so I miss out on all of those things but I remember them with fondness, I really do. Jules (17:45) Right, right. Okay, so I wonder whether just doing that with bathrooms with your dad had some influence on you getting into housing. Whether… I don’t know whether that’s a long bow I’m drawing, but I wonder. Dionne Payn (17:53) Do you know, I’d never thought of that. No, no, I don’t think it is that long a bow. Like, I, just, it just seems really… Jules (17:59) Ha Dionne Payn (18:03) natural and probably not you know but yeah but probably was always quite interesting but just that just the process of okay well you can rip something out and put something new in and it looks amazing I was like yeah that’s really cool. The other aspect my mum being a nurse I remember when I was younger and saying to her ⁓ I want to be a nurse just like you she was like no no no no you want to be a doctor because they get paid more. Jules (18:19) Yeah. I had a father who was a doctor and I definitely ⁓ thought if I was going to do it I’d be getting in on the doctor side. They’re a bit godlike I think in hospitals. Okay so you finished school… No, well my dad just kind of pre-entered it and said I know you won’t study hard enough to do it and I went I don’t want to spend six to twelve years studying before I can get out into the world which was my big thing. Okay so you finished school. What was the next move? Did you go to uni? Dionne Payn (18:37) Yeah, I didn’t study hard enough to do medicine though. You I did, I did. So I wanted to do medicine. My sixth form years were full of partying and not really applying myself. So I knew early on I wasn’t going to get into medicine. I tried to get into pharmacy, but right at the last minute my grades weren’t. hot enough. But I do remember the headmaster, I can’t remember her name now, I can see her, she’s a very strict lady. I remember going in once, I’d got my A levels and she said, what are you going to do? And I was like, I don’t know, I think I’ll wait a year and I’ll reapply and maybe, you know, sort of study some more. And she said, no, just get yourself onto whatever course, it doesn’t matter. And I was like, okay. So I ended up on a course which was, was a new Jules (19:11) quite there. Yeah. Dionne Payn (19:41) course. was was pharmaceutical chemistry and how it was sold to me was that it was halfway between pharmacy and chemistry and I was okay at chemistry and I really wanted to do pharmacy so. Jules (19:42) Yeah. Wow. Dionne Payn (19:55) I thought great and what they said was if you’re in the top 10 % then you’ll be able to transfer to pharmacy. was like yeah great. But what they didn’t tell me was that the course was so small that there were 20 people and the top 10 % was two and I just yeah there were people that were way smarter than me and way more applied than I was and I still was in that phase of partying so I still you know I actually did really well in that degree but the thing that changed the Jules (20:04) wow, right. of you. Dionne Payn (20:24) for me was in the third year I went out to do a work placement and I ended up working in an agrochemical company looking at basically that they had pesticide levels that they had to meet so they’d sample all of these different products and just make sure that the level of pesticides were underneath that and having that applied skill and you know so being able to use that knowledge that I was learning and seeing this is why it’s relevant that was such a good pattern interruption Jules (20:52) Yeah. Dionne Payn (20:54) to me because I think if I hadn’t have had that I’d have just carried on partying and not really seen the benefit of the degree but when I finished that placement and went back for year four two things happened one is that there were only two of us in that last year because everybody else in the year below us had gone out on placement because they realized it was a really good thing and I was pretty competitive so I didn’t not competitive as even I wanted to beat the other person but just competitive that I didn’t want to be Jules (21:17) Right. Dionne Payn (21:24) left behind so you know I studied really hard and then also my boyfriend at that time who is now my husband he was a year yeah he was a year ahead of me and he’d come out no he was a year ahead of me in a different course he did geology and I didn’t yeah he came out and got a really good grade and I didn’t want to be the dumbass girlfriend so was like okay I’m gonna study so it saved me Jules (21:34) in the same course. Yeah. that’s impressive. Okay, so you finished. What did you do? What was the first job after leaving school? Leaving uni. Dionne Payn (22:00) Yeah, yeah, that’s right. I went to work for Smithclime Beecham before they merged with Gruxo. And so that was a pharmaceutical job and I really enjoyed the job. Jules (22:02) Sorry, I always put people on the spot and they go, haven’t even thought about this for so long. yeah. Yeah. Dionne Payn (22:21) I was still with my boyfriend and our husband at the time, but we were working in different places. So we working at different locations around the M25. So each weekend was a mad dash for one of us to drive over to the other one and then get back and ready for work on Monday morning and dealing with the M25, you know, sort of on a Friday evening, that kind of thing. So I enjoyed the work that I was doing, but I didn’t enjoy working for a big company. And I remember feeling like a sort of small cog Jules (22:34) night. interesting. Dionne Payn (22:51) in a very big machine and I was just irrelevant. Not to the people that I was working alongside, but in the sort of bigger scheme of things and I just, yeah, yeah. And I really like that, being able to see the effect of what I’m doing. So the next job I had was working for a smaller company where I felt that I was being really helpful and I really enjoyed that. Jules (22:59) That’s the biggest game of things yet. Yeah. And so, was that another pharmaceutical role? Dionne Payn (23:20) Yeah, yeah, so it was a pharmaceutical role and yeah, it was around that time that I decided that I was going to do a masters because I wanted to study a bit more. So I did that and I was working at that role at the same time and that was great. And then we went to live in Jersey for a while because that’s where my husband is from. And we were there for about three years, which was a really fun time, but I just missed. Jules (23:30) Yeah. Right. which is just a tiny, and it’s a tiny island off England, isn’t it, Jersey? Dionne Payn (23:46) So small, so small. At the time we were living there, there were 100,000 people and the island is nine miles by five. So I think that’s about 14 kilometers by seven, something like that. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, small island and I just, did feel a bit hemmed in. Jules (24:00) Right. Right? Dionne Payn (24:07) So after being on the islands, that was when myself and my husband decided that we were going to go travelling and not so much travelling to go to lots of different countries but just have a change of scene. So we decided that we were going to move to New Zealand and we were going to do a year and… Jules (24:20) right? Why New Zealand? Was there a connection there or had you seen an ad or what was it? ⁓ Dionne Payn (24:35) Geography wasn’t my strong point. Jules (24:37) ⁓ no, don’t tell me you thought it was nearby. ⁓ right. Dionne Payn (24:41) I thought it was tropical. I thought it was tropical because a friend of mine had gone to Fiji. And I was like, ⁓ Fiji’s over that side of the world. Let’s go to New Zealand. And we wanted to be somewhere where we could be for a year, immerse ourselves in something different culture, but not too different that we had to learn a new language. So we thought a year in New Zealand and then a year in Australia. And when we got to Australia, sorry, when we got to New Zealand, we went to Auckland and my husband was able to study ⁓ at an audio engineering school there and I was trying to find work. ⁓ Jules (24:47) and it was nearby. become locals. Right? Okay. Dionne Payn (25:16) I just found I found Aucklanders to be really they were friendly enough but not friendly. They were nice, they were nice people but not friendly and I just it felt like social suicide to me because I I love making friends. Mid-20s so um yeah it was 2005 so 27th yeah yeah. Jules (25:27) Right. How roughly how old are you at this stage? I mean, are you in your 30s or mid 20s? Okay. Right, okay. ⁓ So, from New Zealand to Australia, slight difference, where did you move to in Australia? Dionne Payn (25:46) I’m. We came over to visit. Well, we just came over to visit and we came over for, so we’d been in New Zealand for about two months. Came over to visit a friend who was living in Brisbane. He took us down to Byron and I was just hooked. Jules (25:54) Right. Anyway, we’re hooked. Dionne Payn (26:08) We’re never leaving. How do we move here permanently? So my husband was able to transfer his course to the college in Byron and I was offered a PhD scholarship through Southern Cross University. So I just leapt on it because that was what I wanted to do. And I thought I’d have to wait until I got back to the UK, but I was able to do it in Australia. And that gave us enough points to stay in Australia. So that was really awesome. Jules (26:08) Totally. Yeah. Wow, and then from that you were able to become permanent residents and then citizens. And so it sounds like your husband was also going through a bit of a career change because if he’s gone from pharmaceutical to audio… geography to audio. Okay, so, and is he still in the audio business now? No. Dionne Payn (26:35) Yeah. Yeah. Well, he went from geography to audio. Yeah. That’s a long story too. Jules (26:57) Okay, I won’t go down that rabbit hole then. Tell me about you. So, okay, so you were doing your PhD in, was it pharmaceutical still? Okay, and. Dionne Payn (27:07) Yeah, yeah. So I was actually looking at sugar cane as a source of medicines for diabetes. So it was pharmaceutical, but it was more natural products and that was what I was really interested in. And that was a great experience. I loved the work and the camaraderie was fantastic, but I just realized that at that Jules (27:18) Yeah. Dionne Payn (27:30) point if I didn’t have children and once I’d finished if I went straight into the postdoctoral positions I probably wouldn’t have children or have them much later and then maybe struggle to have children at all. So when I finished that when I finished my PhD I was hmm probably about six weeks away from my due date and I just thought look I’ll figure out yeah. Jules (27:49) Right. wow, you got pregnant during the… Okay. Dionne Payn (27:53) Yeah, I was very close to the end, but yeah, and so yeah, I had my daughter who arrived late, which was great because I got to have a bit of a break from studying because it was pretty intense at that point. Yeah. Jules (27:56) Yeah. time me a bit of time out not knowing what was going to happen though you know we all think we’re going to have this great little baby and it’s going to be easy and it’s just more challenging okay so did you stop work then ⁓ yeah go on yeah Dionne Payn (28:15) Actually, I have to say, Jules, my first year with my daughter, Marlia, it was like I was on holiday because the intensity of the PhD was that I was just working all the time and Marlia was really cruising at that age. She’d slept and did all the great things that you wish for as a parent. ⁓ Jules (28:23) brilliant! Yeah, great. Perfect. that’s amazing. Okay, so what did you do then? You’ve taken that year out to be with Malia. Did you decide to go back to work? Did you have another child? What was the next step? ⁓ Dionne Payn (28:46) Yeah, so we decided that I was going to stay home with Marlia. And in that first year, Marlia was just a very chilled child. After that, she became very energetic. Jules (29:03) As children tend to do. Dionne Payn (29:06) as children tend to do. And so yeah, there was lots of running around and I would do bits and pieces of contract work, so marketing work here and there, but it was mainly I was at home and my husband was working. And then four years later, my son came along, four years after Malia was born, my son came along. And at that point, and I loved, I had maybe about a year with him at home. And it just seemed like a really natural time for my husband to take it. Jules (29:24) Yeah. Dionne Payn (29:36) bit of a step back and for me to start working again and it was around that time that we decided to go into property and learn about property and in fact we’d probably been learning about property a year before, in the first year that Atticus was born, you know towards the end of that year was when we found a joint venture partner through one of the property courses that we did and that was how. Jules (29:38) Okay, nice. So, can I just interrupt? So were you doing these courses for your personally to just get ahead and say, if we want to be able to buy houses and things, then we need to be able to start making money. Okay, so it was just purely from an interest kind of point of view that you started with the property. Dionne Payn (30:09) Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. it was totally about money making. It was like, what can I do? Because at that point I figured that I was pretty unemployable. know, having done a PhD, having worked by myself for four years, having taken time off to be with my kids, I was just like, yeah, who’s going to employ me? They’re probably going to find me really bossy and just, you know. Jules (30:21) Right. You I’m sure they would have loved you, but anyway it was time for a bit of a shift so Dionne Payn (30:42) It was time for a shift and you know being on one income and staying home with the kids was fantastic but bearing in mind that I’d been a student, I’d been on a stipend and my husband had a decent job but on one income it just doesn’t cut it so I just really wanted to understand the game of property so we could play it to our advantage. Jules (32:10) And so how you said you brought up got a joint venture partner. It sounds to me like it got bigger than, you know, normal people, not normal people, a lot of people who maybe will go out and a two bedroom flat as their first thing. What were you, what was your first project that you did with your husband and partners? Dionne Payn (32:31) Yes, so our first project was a ⁓ house on a block. It was a house in a studio. They were connected by a roof. The block must have been about, it was a long time ago, but maybe about 1400 square meters. So a decent sized block. Yeah. So I realized that we could remove the roof, renovate both properties, clean them up, give them a good renovation, subdivide them. Jules (32:38) Yeah. quite big, yeah. Dionne Payn (33:01) basically doing a paper exercise to separate them, put them on separate titles so that we could sell them separately and I did the numbers on that and it looked like it would be quite a healthy return so we presented that to the joint venture partner and he was happy to basically bankroll that while we did the work for it. Jules (33:03) Yep. Okay, so my big question has to be how do you find a joint venture partner? I mean, where did that come from? Because that’s not something that I hear very many other people do. Dionne Payn (33:29) It came from the property courses that we were doing and I remember the lady that ran the first course that we did, she said, know, money’s everywhere. Like you just don’t worry about the money. Like once you’ve got the deal, you’ll find the money. And I remember thinking at the time, like that sounds like a crock of, but okay, let’s give it a go. And so, you know, we did a series of, ⁓ found properties and we ran the numbers and we got help Jules (33:32) Right. You Dionne Payn (33:59) from the lady as well, because it was a mentor program. And so once we found the deal, she let us present it on stage. And so that was where we found somebody that had ⁓ the money and yeah, like total sweat equity there, because we didn’t have the money to put into it. But we had the enthusiasm and the, you know, like really wanting to make something work. Jules (34:02) Yeah. wow, right. Did you actually get out with, were you and your husband out with hammers and nails or were you project managing builders? Dionne Payn (34:35) We were project managing and also doing some of the work. So when I was responsible for sandpapering the frames, my husband had made a door. So he’s handy, I’m not. So he’d made the door and I was responsible for sanding the frames and I sandpapered the glass. And at the time I just wasn’t being that, you know, sort of… Jules (34:37) Right. Right, okay. Ha ha ha ha! Dionne Payn (35:03) careful because I was like, we’ll be able to you know rub that out and then he said no you can’t rub it out. I was like no. So that’s a bit of a running joke for us because he’s now a handyman and every once in a while I say do you need any help? He’s like no, ⁓ not from you. ⁓ Jules (35:10) dear. Right. HAHAHAHA ⁓ Okay, so you sold your first property, presumably made a nice little pot of money to be able to start investing into another one. How did your business grow or how did your career grow from there? Dionne Payn (35:28) we did. Well, did, actually just going back, Jules, because I think it’s really important. You said something about not many people would just go and find a joint venture partner or know how to do that. It’s that thing for me which is… Jules (35:40) Yeah, yeah. No. Dionne Payn (35:57) and somebody else talks about this in terms of the illusion of limited resources. So we think because we don’t have something that it’s just never going to happen. But that for me was a real eye-opener in, well, yeah, I didn’t have it, but I had another resource. ⁓ just putting the value on having time as a resource and the skill to be able to do something is so important because sometimes we think that money is everything. And money does grease Jules (36:01) Yeah. that other people don’t. Yeah. Dionne Payn (36:27) the wheels but you actually have to have people that will implement on your behalf and so I realised that as implementers and as people that were you know yes we can manage this project and yes we can do some of the work there was actually a lot of value in that and I just think it’s really important to bring that up because yes sometimes in places so much importance on money but when we realise that we all have have a resource that we and a skill that we can bring to the table it just really evens up the playing field. Jules (36:32) Right. Yeah, Dionne Payn (36:57) you Jules (36:57) and not to be scared of not necessarily having money because there are plenty of other people that do have it and don’t have that time. Okay, ⁓ so back to the question, what happened next? How did your ⁓ building, I guess, and property career from pharmaceutical, how did that progress? Or were you still just doing that on the side as a little project? Dionne Payn (37:04) Exactly. Yeah. No, no. we, after that project, we found another one. In fact, we found the other one in the middle of that project. And so we went back to the joint venture partner and said, hey, do you want to do this one? And so we did that. And then we found another project. So that really began our property development business. And yeah, so we did three. Jules (37:28) Right. flipping. Dionne Payn (37:46) projects and they were smaller, pretty similar, renovation subdivision and then the fourth project team was when I found the piece of land that had approval for the 14 one-bedroom townhouses and that project really, it was so… Jules (38:00) late. Dionne Payn (38:08) game changing for me. just blew my mind. I remember thinking about it afterwards and just going, wow, like I proved something really important that I didn’t even know that I needed to prove. And when I was growing up, so you know, my parents were working class, they worked really hard, but we didn’t have a lot of money. And so things were really tight. And also my mum’s family are ⁓ quite religious. So church was a big thing in my life as someone growing up. So kind of Jules (38:37) Yeah. Dionne Payn (38:38) equated ⁓ being of service and not having much money as being the same thing. So when we did this bigger project and I saw the benefit that it had on the community and I made money out of it, was like, you know those times where you’re just like, da da da da da, yeah, yeah, something really big has happened here. So that was it for me, it was like, well. Jules (38:55) The light bulb, yep. Dionne Payn (39:04) I can do property, because being of service is something that’s really important to me, like it’s just one of those values for me. So, and I guess as well that I’d had a bit of a perception of if you’re making lots of money, then you’re probably not making it in the right way. You know what mean? And particularly, yes, yeah, yeah. Jules (39:08) Yeah. No, and you probably don’t care about other people. I think there’s all those kind of weird things that are associated with wealth. Dionne Payn (39:29) Yeah, 100 % and particularly being in the property development industry as well. Yeah, like it’s just it. Yeah, anyway, all of that together just blew my mind and went, okay, we can do property development differently. And it wasn’t that I had that epiphany right at that time. And because actually that project was really challenging and it was it was a really bit of more than I could chew with that project. And so there were some lessons that I had to learn. Jules (39:33) property game. Well, it’s quite a lot to go from little one and two bedroom houses to 14 of them. And all the associated things, well, as you already alluded to, car parks and all those sorts of things that you wouldn’t even think about when you’re just thinking, just need to build walls. Dionne Payn (40:01) Yes. ⁓ Yes. Exactly, exactly. mean, in terms of the level of work, it’s the same amount of work. You know, it’s still a full time job. from that perspective, doing a project like that, like a larger project, you might as well use your time to do that kind of project. But there’s just a lot more to manage. And so it’s, you know, sort of doing those renovations, subdivisions is something that you can do as an individual or as a couple. Doing a larger scale project like that, you’ve Jules (40:18) Right. Yeah. Dionne Payn (40:40) really need to be on top of project management, financial management, people management, all of that. And so that I think that was the big learning curve and particularly around the people because I just, you know, I’m a very friendly person and, and, know, I always assume the best in people. So it was a real lesson that actually you can’t do that. You can’t assume the best. You’ve always got to be prepared. And so the, the important… Jules (40:57) Yeah. I’m sorry but there’s definitely a story in that. There has to be. You don’t have to name names or anything. But just because I’m somebody who takes people at face value and always trusts them. And I’m always incredibly hurt when I think that I’ve made the wrong decision or I find out I’ve made the wrong decision. Sorry to interrupt you but there clearly is a story. So was it a builder? Was it a… There was something that happened where somebody ripped you off. Dionne Payn (41:16) here. Wrong builder, wrong joint venture partner. Yeah, yeah. So not, wasn’t the same joint venture partner that I’d had right at the beginning. And look, I say wrong builder, wrong joint venture partner, they were absolutely right. They were absolutely right because that’s how I know. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ Jules (41:36) ⁓ right. Okay. in the previous ones, yep. Well they taught you, that’s how you learned, isn’t it? butts. Dionne Payn (41:56) The joint venture partner, it’s the values alignment. It wasn’t there. And that was a hard lesson because when, you know, sort of going through the project and… Jules (42:01) right Dionne Payn (42:08) The joint venture partner was very interested in minimizing costs and when that suited me that was great. But then I saw the fallout of that in terms of the builder ended up going broke. He had his own issues as well, but just the sort of, you know, really holding the purse strings and not being fair in terms of the way of, ⁓ you know, managing a project. Jules (42:15) You the quality. Right. OK. I’m so glad you say that because I do think that, ⁓ and I put it as a masculine thing, but it probably isn’t. It’s just probably more a finance thing that they remove the emotion completely. And I see it in my partner. He gets on a whole different face when we’re talking about money and it’s a very weird thing. But I’m like, why does one have to exclude the other? And I guess that’s where you butted heads with somebody who was there. Let’s be a hard-nosed business pragmatist. This is about us making money, it’s not about giving charity to other people. And it’s actually that combination that you want, that we all want you to do. Dionne Payn (43:12) Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I just really saw the impact that that had on the builder ⁓ because… Jules (43:18) Right. Dionne Payn (43:22) And like I said, the builder had his own challenges as well. So it was definitely a compounding effect. yeah, yeah, it was just values alignment. I really do believe in being fair and treating people fairly. And so when somebody is just all about the numbers and I’m all about the people, just, and we couldn’t agree on how to proceed on that. So that was a challenge. Jules (43:27) Yeah. But I think it’s just one of those classic, know, it sounds like a fuck up or whatever. And then you kind of go, well, actually it was a gift because really otherwise you could have kept doing this with people like him until something much worse happened. Dionne Payn (44:03) 100 % and it was a her by the way. Yeah. Jules (44:05) Oh, even worse, with somebody like them I should have said I did realise I make these future assumptions. Okay, so you finished your 14 houses, what came next? Other than probably a nervous breakdown. Oh really? Dionne Payn (44:16) ⁓ Yes, yep. Not quite the nervous breakdown, but certainly a period of depression and darkness. ⁓ no, it was actually the best thing. Again, with what you said before, we go through these things and then come out of it realizing the gift. And the gift for me and that was I’m stronger than I think. So it took… Jules (44:26) here. Yeah. undoubtedly. Dionne Payn (44:43) Yeah, it took me to go to the brink to get there, but I just remember at that time when it seemed really bleak, just thinking, I’ve just got to put one foot in front of the other, I’m going to get through this. I didn’t even know how I was going to get through it. It wasn’t like I had a plan. like, okay, yes, I’ll do this and this and this, and then I’ll get through it. But I just trusted in something bigger in terms of… Yeah, just trusted that continuously doing the right thing would actually see me out and just acting out of integrity would see me through. yeah, that was the gift. Jules (45:22) Well I’m glad it didn’t put you off property because it could have done that too. You could have gone back to pharmacology and… did it? Did it? Okay. ⁓ you poor thing. So what did you do next? Dionne Payn (45:27) No, did for a while. I remember saying to people, I’m never doing property ever again. So I look, I did some more projects, but then realized that my heart wasn’t really in it. And I did a lot of soul searching actually, and a lot of personal development. Yeah, that was good. I mean, I sort of went into that personal development thinking that I was broken. I came out of that personal development realizing that I’m not broken. just, you know, sort of had a set of circumstances that now I know better and now I’m more in alignment with my own values. I could just go, well, I wouldn’t do that again. So that was really beneficial. And… At the time I remember meeting a developer, really randomly actually, I went to a networking meeting and met a guy and was having a chat with him and I don’t know if he called me or I called him and he was like, you need to meet this developer guy that I’m working with. And so I met him and we had a good old chat and that was real values alignment. So it was chalk and cheese from what I’d had before with my joint venture partner. Jules (46:48) right Dionne Payn (46:51) and he asked me if I would raise money for him because I was good at doing that and good at finding joint venture partners. I would raise money for him. Jules (46:56) Sorry, what right is money for him? raise, yep, yep. Dionne Payn (47:01) Yeah, yeah. And yeah, because I’d had that experience of working with investors and joint venture partners. And I said, yeah, I can do that. And we we ended up working together for quite some time. like it’s still in my life now, we don’t work together in the business anymore. But we work together on individual projects. And yeah, so we had that working relationship for quite some time. And he actually mentored me out of property development because I was just thinking, this isn’t for me, I want to do more capital raising, I’m enjoying that aspect of it because it is all about, for me it’s about making friends, right? If I can make friends I’m happy. ⁓ And so I remember speaking to him as well after we met and just saying, look I’m happy to raise capital for you but I only want to do it for affordable and sustainable housing, how do you feel about that? And he was like, yeah that’s great, let’s set up a fund where we just do that and I was like, great! Jules (47:38) Yeah, yeah. brilliant! Dionne Payn (48:01) Thank you, Universe. Jules (48:01) Thank you, universe. Dionne Payn (48:04) So, I mean, it’s taken, ⁓ gosh, I met him in 2019. It is now 2025, and he has now set up the fund, and I’ve got the housing project. Excuse me. ⁓ Jules (48:19) Okay. Dionne Payn (48:19) ⁓ So it’s taken that time to get there, but that was the wish that we put out into the universe right back then, and it’s happening. So it’s really lovely to come full circle. Jules (48:29) I’m so pleased. Yeah, and it sounds like you’ve had quite a journey, but I think, you know, the fact that you have those values and that you’ve stuck by those values will, you know, is not only inspiring, but I think will hopefully… ⁓ help you make that impact and anything I can do to help you do that and make those get those affordable housing for women but also those investment opportunities is brilliant. So next question I’ve got one weird question for you at the end that’s nothing to do with anything that I ask everyone but in the meantime if anybody is listening to this and loves the sound of it and at $5,000 it seems very achievable that people can get involved what is the best way for them to get in touch with you? is the best way for them to, yeah, become part of your world. Dionne Payn (49:22) Yeah great, okay couple of ways. One, find me on LinkedIn because I’m very vocal on LinkedIn, often posting and so I just do a search for my name Dion Payne on LinkedIn and ⁓ the other way is going to the website and joining up at the website which is womenforhomes.com so that’s women number four homes.com and either way they’ll be in my universe and I’ll be in their universe and it will be lovely and Jules (49:26) Yep. great URL. Dionne Payn (49:52) Yeah, just, one of the things that I’m working on at the moment is a series of co-living homes for older women that are… Yes. Yes. Jules (50:00) my god, really? I love the sound of this. This is my sort of thing that I think I want to do when I get older. Dionne Payn (50:08) Yes. Awesome. Beautiful, affordable, dignified. That’s my sort of catchphrase for these homes. And we’re looking at using sustainable materials, using hemp. so I’m on this journey at the moment and I’m really looking for women that feel inspired to be a part of something like this. yeah, whether it’s investing or whether it’s spreading the word, I just see that this would be something really amazing. Jules (50:14) Right. Brilliant. Dionne Payn (50:39) And it’s something that’s really achievable, it’s something that already exists in the planning rules, it’s not that we have to do anything crazy. And we can really make a difference because as you alluded to right at the beginning, Women Over 50 is that fastest growing group facing homelessness and we don’t have to just wait for homelessness to happen, we can actually stop it at the source. And stopping at the source is exactly, exactly, yeah. Jules (50:51) Yeah. Yeah, we’ve got to nip it in the bud now. Yeah, yeah. And so are you building those just quickly to go to the properties that you, the co-living places? Are they all in Northern New South Wales at the moment? Or where are they? Dionne Payn (51:10) No, no. So they’ll be in Victoria, New South Wales and South Australia because the rules for those, they’re called rooming houses. The rules for those rooming houses are pretty flexible. Whereas in New South Wales, they’re actually, you need to do a large number of them to make it profitable. And so, you know, we’ve got an opportunity to make it profitable for investors, but also make it affordable for the inhabitants and a number of different ways of doing that. Jules (51:19) Yes. Right. Dionne Payn (51:40) working with community housing providers and that sort of thing. yeah, ⁓ I’m really excited about bringing this into being. Jules (51:48) I’m really excited that you’re bringing this into being as well. I just think this is so good Dion, I think that’s what we need and we need people like you to champion that change that needs to happen. ⁓ And I’m just so thrilled that I got a chance to meet you but also now to be able to share what it is that you’re doing because I do think you’re pretty extraordinary. ⁓ Dionne Payn (52:09) Thank you. Jules (52:10) And I’m absolutely delighted that you’re doing this and that I know you. So, okay, here’s a really out of left field question for you. Is there a quirky fact about you that most people don’t know that you’d be up for sharing? And it literally can be anything. So I’ve heard everything from Kate Toon telling me that she was the first person on Graham Norton’s Big Red Share. Who even knew that? Two people who are synchro, I know! Dionne Payn (52:18) Take care. didn’t Jules (52:38) She did it and then he started it as a regular thing apparently. ⁓ Yes, I’ve had CEOs tell me their secret rev heads. I’ve had all sorts of things. So is there a quirky fact about you that people might not know? Dionne Payn (52:42) Very cool. Yes, a few years ago, ⁓ for about two or three years, I was part of an 80s flash mob. Jules (52:54) Yeah. stop it in Australia yeah Dionne Payn (53:06) in Australia. We were called the Cassettes. The Cassettes is still going, they’re still flash mobbing. I jumped out of it actually as things got a bit more serious with the development because I just didn’t have the time. But we would go and perform dances to 80s music. It was so much fun. So much fun. ⁓ Jules (53:25) ⁓ wow, what I would give to see you in some leg warmers and leotards out doing an 80s dance. I love that. Well Dion, thank you so so much for this interview. It’s been really fun. You are an amazing woman. I absolutely hope that people listening to this will get in touch with you and become part of this movement that you’re building. And thank you for doing what you’re doing. Dionne Payn (53:36) It’s been so fun. Thank you. And look, ⁓ I just want to say thank you for interviewing me. ⁓ It’s been so much fun being on the show. And I love what you’re doing as well. And I love the fact that you’re such a super connector. ⁓ And yeah, I really appreciate that about you. Jules (53:55) Gosh. Thank you. Jules (00:13) Hi and welcome to this episode of She’s the Boss Disruptors and I’m interviewing the amazing Dion Payne from Women for Homes. I met Dion, I think it was a couple of years ago now, Dion was it? And you told me your story and what you were doing or a little bit of it and I was completely hooked so I know everyone else will be hooked as well. But let’s just start off by getting you to introduce yourself and tell us what do you do and what your business actually is. Dionne Payn (00:25) Yeah. Sure thing. Well, I am the founder of an organization called Women for Homes and we exist to inspire a million women to invest $5,000 to end homelessness by 2030. And we do that through ensuring that the women that invest are financially empowered along the way. So what we do at Women for Homes is we have, we have a opportunities to invest into affordable, sustainable and inclusive homes. And we also ⁓ offer education as well. And we work, I have the financially empowered women podcast, which I interview some amazing women who are doing great things in the finance space and educating. And it’s really for me about making sure that we have like a digital campfire where women can share their stories and other women that may Jules (01:14) Yep. Brilliant. Yeah. Dionne Payn (01:38) going through things that need that advice or guidance, they can listen to the podcasts and they can reach out to the experts that we have if they need to. Jules (01:48) my God, I love it, love it, love it. I’ve already just thought of someone I’m gonna have to introduce you to. But in the meantime, I know that you’ve worked in the industry in terms of raising investment for buildings for a long time. So can you tell us a little bit about the disruptive kind of aspect of what you’re doing? Because I think you are doing something really different. So is there something broken in the system that needs fixing? Dionne Payn (02:16) Yes, Jules (02:16) Leading question, but… Dionne Payn (02:16) yes. It’s really interesting because on Tuesday I run the Ethical Property Investor Accelerator and the theme for Tuesday’s lesson was legacy and I gave the quote from Buckminster Fuller that was there’s no point in railing against the existing system just create a new one that makes the old one obsolete. Jules (02:29) night. Dionne Payn (02:43) and I do really believe that that’s what we’re doing here at Women for Homes. look. Jules (02:43) Love that. Dionne Payn (02:48) Bit of background about me and how I got into this. I have been in the development industry for a long time, so over 10 years. I started off as a property developer and did a series of small developments, renovations and subdivisions, which then led me to do an affordable housing project, which was 14 one bedroom townhouses. And what was cool about that was that there were small homes, there were 60 square meters. They were in the right zoning, so we got relaxations. Jules (03:09) Okay. Dionne Payn (03:18) on the number of car parks and the number of homes that we could get on the site. So it worked for us financially. So we got a great return as investors into the project. And also there was a really beautiful legacy that we were able to create for the community. Now in full transparency, I didn’t go into it thinking, this is going to be a great legacy. I went into it thinking I’m going to make a mozza. But along the way, I realized that we could do both. And that was the first time in my property development journey that I Jules (03:23) Right? Yeah. Dionne Payn (03:48) that yeah okay we can do something that’s really meaningful for a lot of people because when we get housing right it is really transformative but we can also make money too and actually it’s really important that we do because of that financial sustainability and what I mean by that is when you make money on one thing you can do something else, do something else, increase the level of impact whereas if you do property investment in the traditional way which is you know buying a house, negatively gearing it, negative gearing hurts Jules (04:06) Yeah. Dionne Payn (04:18) people entering property, the negative giving laws hurt people getting into property in the first instance, but it also hurts you as an investor because it puts a cap on what you can, the number of properties that you can purchase. Whereas doing what I’m talking about, which is ethical property investing, you can keep doing it because it’s cash flow positive and you’re helping a lot of people and it feels really good. Jules (04:30) right And so what I know that you’ve and I’m going to get you to take me right back to when you were a little girl and how your career has progressed in a minute. But I’m interested to know how the model is different and you’ve sort of touched on it that currently in terms of building properties people are just building them in order to make some money and there’s a cap on it. But what led you to particularly want to help women? Why is that? Why is this called Women for Homes? And what are you trying to do to actually break what has been out there for a very, very long time? Dionne Payn (05:15) Yeah, well… Why women? I had an experience about this time last year where I went on a retreat and the retreat was fantastic and you know being out in nature and having really nourishing food and doing all these wonderful practices. It just gave me the time away to sit and be still and really contemplate the direction that I was going in and I remember being surrounded by all of these women who when I talk about my business because it was a marketing and branding retreat so we were learning different ways to do marketing. Jules (05:23) Yeah. Yeah. Dionne Payn (05:47) And so when I spoke to these women that were also on the course, they were saying things like, this is amazing, we’d love to be involved, how can we be involved? And I knew that what I was doing at that time in terms of raising capital. Jules (05:48) Yeah. Dionne Payn (06:01) only really worked for what we call wholesale investors. So those that are high net worth individuals that could put, you know, $50,000 minimum on the table. So when I looked around at this group of women, I was like, they’re beautiful women and they want to be involved. But I knew that that sort of investment point was going to be quite a challenge for many of them. So I just, you know, sort of pondered and, you know, being on the retreat, I was like, well, what’s missing? And I realised that actually Jules (06:06) Right. too high. Yeah. Dionne Payn (06:32) we need a way to make this an everybody’s solution. So since the affordable housing project that I did and completed back in 2018, I’ve been thinking, you know, how do we solve this housing crisis? What are the levers that we can pull to make this work? And done it. Jules (06:45) Yeah, because for anybody who’s listening, I don’t know if you realize that women over 50 are the fastest growing group of homelessness in Australia. And I know about five years ago, someone said to me, there are 16,000 women sleeping in their cars or on the streets. ⁓ At the moment, I imagine that’s growing. So it is a huge issue just in case anybody is listening and doesn’t know that. ⁓ So go on. Yeah. Dionne Payn (06:55) Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and that’s a great segue because when I was sitting down after the retreat, I knew I had to do something. And I was sitting down after the retreat just thinking, OK, what can I do? What can I do? And I knew it had to be around women because being on the retreat with women was fabulous. And I was like, yeah, we can we can really do something if we could harness that little bit of energy that was in that particular room at that time. but, you we expand that and we can harness all of these women. What can we do? So that that was really exciting for me. But at the Jules (07:34) Yeah. Dionne Payn (07:42) time, and I wasn’t sure what it was going to be, like I said, I knew I had to do something, in the business plan, in the preparing for Women for Homes. I’d kind of done all the regular things in the business plan. like, okay, well if we can get women to invest more amounts of money, how many women do we need? But I also wanted to look at, why are women ending up homeless in the first place? And I knew about the gender pay gap. That’s been something that’s been very advertised. But I didn’t know how many things kind of spilled out of that and how many things compounded that. So for example, when you Jules (08:06) in the first place, yeah. Yeah. Dionne Payn (08:23) got two graduates and they’re entering the workforce, a man and a woman, the man is more likely to negotiate to increase his salary, the woman is less likely to, so that sets up the disparity right at the beginning and then when women take time out of the workforce to raise families then you know they’re not being paid for the work that they’re doing even though studies have shown that if Jules (08:33) Yeah. Dionne Payn (08:48) if all of these jobs that women do when they take care of their children, if they were all outsourced, it would be a $200,000 a year job. Jules (08:57) And I think almost every woman who’s a parent knows that. I know, it’s crazy, isn’t it? It’s crazy, the devaluation of something that is so important. Dionne Payn (09:00) Yes, yes absolutely but it’s so crazy but… Yes, yeah. And that study actually came from an insurance company. So it’s not just random women making this up to make themselves feel good. It came from an insurance company. They do it every year. And so… Yeah, just seeing all of these different disparities, the taking time out of the workforce, the sandwich generation, so those women that are looking after older parents now, as well as looking after children, the children that are staying home for longer because they can’t afford to get out, women’s natural inclination to look after everybody other than themselves, and then throw in a divorce and separation. it’s just like, ⁓ take on this by the end of this research was like, Jules (09:33) as well. Dionne Payn (09:52) We are properly screwed and nobody is talking about this. ⁓ Me too, me too. Jules (09:54) We really are, yeah. I couldn’t agree more. So I’m glad you’re doing something about an aspect of it. Dionne Payn (10:03) When I thought about doing the podcast, I’d been thinking about doing a podcast for a while, and I was thinking about it, was like, it’s gonna be a lot of work, ⁓ I don’t know. But the message, the little kind of in my ear was like, you gotta do it, you gotta do it, and I’m so glad I did, because I’ve met so many amazing women, we’ve had so many great guests on, covering a range of topics from divorce and super funds and property and so much more. I’ve been educated, Jules (10:31) Yeah. Dionne Payn (10:33) ⁓ big time and there were things that I didn’t even know and you know times that I was like wow thank you for sharing and I realized as well as a result of doing that podcast that it’s a resource that I can share I can share with my immediate friends I had a friend that was going through something and she was explaining and I said you’ve got to listen to this podcast and as a result of taking action on that podcast it changed the trajectory of her working environment and the ripple effect on her family was immense so Jules (10:39) What? Yes. Brilliant. Dionne Payn (11:03) this is what we do really well as women. So I just, I love what I do, I love what I do with Women for Homes and the disruptive part of it is it’s about women taking their own power, not… relying on, okay, well I’m getting this advice from this place and this advice from this place and they are right. It’s really about, well, let me arm myself with all of the information that I will need that’s relevant to my situation. Let me hear something that will give me a different viewpoint and a different way of looking at the situation and then from there I can take action. So that’s the disruptive part. how I see women for homes is it’s not just a way to invest into affordable housing. It’s actually, it’s a movement. Jules (11:45) Yes. Dionne Payn (11:45) it’s combining the, you know, let’s make a systemic change and also let’s be financially empowered as well. Jules (11:54) Yeah, and I think it’s so important these days particularly that we don’t sit around and wait for somebody to help us or somebody to make those changes. We just take it into our own hands. Just a quick aside though, are you only taking investors as women or have you got, is the investment side of it gender neutral and it’s just about serving women or are you only looking for female investors as well? Dionne Payn (12:16) So, Women for Homes is about women investing into affordable and sustainable homes. The homes are available for everybody and how I see this is we need a diverse range of homes across what we call the housing continuum. So all the way from social housing up to downsize of housing and even end of life care. We need to increase the supply of houses across that continuum because if we don’t then it means that people are trapped in, for example, Jules (12:23) Right. okay. Dionne Payn (12:46) somebody living in a very big house, they want to be able to downsize and live in the area that they raise their children in, but they can’t move because they can’t find anything that is the right size for them. So Women for Homes is all about providing right sized homes across the housing continuum. Now the language that I use is all about women. Jules (13:03) Okay. ⁓ Dionne Payn (13:08) If men were to invest in that, I don’t think I’d have an issue with that. It’s just that I’m not speaking to that particular audience. But if men just think, gosh, this really moves me and I want to invest, we’ve got a big problem. We’ve got a housing crisis to sort out. I’m not really there to be turning money away. But it’s just, who am I talking to? It’s women. Jules (13:14) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, so my next question is, was there a light bulb moment? Was there something specific that happened that made you go, okay, I’ve got to do it now? And I mean, because the retreat to me sounds like quite a pivotal moment for you. But I think you’d started Women for Homes before that, hadn’t you? I thought the retreat was last year. No. Dionne Payn (13:47) No, no. It was… Yeah, yeah, so the retreat was last year, last November, and I started Women for Homes in the January. Jules (13:53) Right. my goodness, I didn’t realise it was that new. Crazy, okay. Dionne Payn (13:58) Yeah, yeah. I’ve been raising money, so I have a business called High Impact Property Investments which has been running for five years. So I’ve been raising money for affordable and sustainable homes for that period of time. But yeah, Women for Homes as the sort of sister of that organisation only started in January. Jules (14:06) Right. Wow, well, I feel very privileged that I’ve got you early, because I’m sure it’s going to be huge. OK, so now I’m incredibly nosy, and I love listening to people tell me about their life. So I want to go back. I can hear an English accent with you, and I do know that you’ve come over from England. But can we go right back to when you were, eight or nine? I want to know, did you go to school? Did you love school? Did you hate school? Do you have brothers and sisters? And what your parents did? Dionne Payn (14:23) Yeah. Yeah, okay, so I’m the eldest of six children. I have two brothers and three sisters. They are all very cool and all, yeah, they’re just great. And they live in, yeah, they live within a sort 10 kilometer radius of where we grew up. So every time I go home, I’m like, I’m so grateful because I don’t have to travel far to see everybody. Jules (14:51) wow. Yep. You ⁓ I’m sure that’s not the only reason but where is home? Where did you grow up? Dionne Payn (15:18) So I grew up just outside of Birmingham in the UK and we were in suburbia, there wasn’t really that much to do. But I was actually talking to my daughter and I was thinking that I’m so glad that we didn’t have mobile phones. We just had walkmans, I remember having my walkman and listening to tapes and things, but that whole digital aspect and being online, that wasn’t part of my childhood. Jules (15:21) Right. Haha Yeah. Dionne Payn (15:48) very grateful for that. And yeah, I loved school. I love, love, school. I just, yeah, I was one of those smart kids, not too smart that was completely inaccessible, but smart and friendly. So I had lots of friends, but also when I needed to knuckle down to work, I could do that. Jules (16:01) Right. Wow, okay, so I presume you loved secondary school as well and was that the local school to where your family is now? Dionne Payn (16:13) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, the local comp. Tiverdale comprehensive. Jules (16:19) Right, comprehensive. Okay, so what happened when you got to year 12 and you finished school? Was there a natural ⁓ urge to go to uni? Well, actually, I’ll tell you, actually, let’s just go back a bit. You didn’t tell me what your parents do and I’m only interested from the role modelling point of view as to what the expectations would have been on you and maybe what your parents sort of did and you were watching. Dionne Payn (16:48) Yeah, okay, so both my parents worked. My mum was a nurse and she used to work night shifts so she could be there for us during the day. And my dad was a bathroom fitter, so he would have bathrooms and, you know, sort of bathroom fittings loaded in the back of his van and he’d drive all up and down the country to go and fit bathrooms. Jules (17:09) installing bathrooms. Dionne Payn (17:11) I loved going to work with my dad. Sometimes I’d be lucky enough to go with him and I remember, you know, we’d stop off at these like, frock stop sandwich places and we’d get these like, big sandwiches and you know, the Twix bar and the Canna Coke. Jules (17:21) Yes. Or in England the sandwich with a bag of chips in it. Yeah, it’s a real English thing is those bag of crisps with your sandwich. Dionne Payn (17:31) Yes, yes, good times. It’s such a good thing. And now I’m gluten intolerant so I miss out on all of those things but I remember them with fondness, I really do. Jules (17:45) Right, right. Okay, so I wonder whether just doing that with bathrooms with your dad had some influence on you getting into housing. Whether… I don’t know whether that’s a long bow I’m drawing, but I wonder. Dionne Payn (17:53) Do you know, I’d never thought of that. No, no, I don’t think it is that long a bow. Like, I, just, it just seems really… Jules (17:59) Ha Dionne Payn (18:03) natural and probably not you know but yeah but probably was always quite interesting but just that just the process of okay well you can rip something out and put something new in and it looks amazing I was like yeah that’s really cool. The other aspect my mum being a nurse I remember when I was younger and saying to her ⁓ I want to be a nurse just like you she was like no no no no you want to be a doctor because they get paid more. Jules (18:19) Yeah. I had a father who was a doctor and I definitely ⁓ thought if I was going to do it I’d be getting in on the doctor side. They’re a bit godlike I think in hospitals. Okay so you finished school… No, well my dad just kind of pre-entered it and said I know you won’t study hard enough to do it and I went I don’t want to spend six to twelve years studying before I can get out into the world which was my big thing. Okay so you finished school. What was the next move? Did you go to uni? Dionne Payn (18:37) Yeah, I didn’t study hard enough to do medicine though. You I did, I did. So I wanted to do medicine. My sixth form years were full of partying and not really applying myself. So I knew early on I wasn’t going to get into medicine. I tried to get into pharmacy, but right at the last minute my grades weren’t. hot enough. But I do remember the headmaster, I can’t remember her name now, I can see her, she’s a very strict lady. I remember going in once, I’d got my A levels and she said, what are you going to do? And I was like, I don’t know, I think I’ll wait a year and I’ll reapply and maybe, you know, sort of study some more. And she said, no, just get yourself onto whatever course, it doesn’t matter. And I was like, okay. So I ended up on a course which was, was a new Jules (19:11) quite there. Yeah. Dionne Payn (19:41) course. was was pharmaceutical chemistry and how it was sold to me was that it was halfway between pharmacy and chemistry and I was okay at chemistry and I really wanted to do pharmacy so. Jules (19:42) Yeah. Wow. Dionne Payn (19:55) I thought great and what they said was if you’re in the top 10 % then you’ll be able to transfer to pharmacy. was like yeah great. But what they didn’t tell me was that the course was so small that there were 20 people and the top 10 % was two and I just yeah there were people that were way smarter than me and way more applied than I was and I still was in that phase of partying so I still you know I actually did really well in that degree but the thing that changed the Jules (20:04) wow, right. of you. Dionne Payn (20:24) for me was in the third year I went out to do a work placement and I ended up working in an agrochemical company looking at basically that they had pesticide levels that they had to meet so they’d sample all of these different products and just make sure that the level of pesticides were underneath that and having that applied skill and you know so being able to use that knowledge that I was learning and seeing this is why it’s relevant that was such a good pattern interruption Jules (20:52) Yeah. Dionne Payn (20:54) to me because I think if I hadn’t have had that I’d have just carried on partying and not really seen the benefit of the degree but when I finished that placement and went back for year four two things happened one is that there were only two of us in that last year because everybody else in the year below us had gone out on placement because they realized it was a really good thing and I was pretty competitive so I didn’t not competitive as even I wanted to beat the other person but just competitive that I didn’t want to be Jules (21:17) Right. Dionne Payn (21:24) left behind so you know I studied really hard and then also my boyfriend at that time who is now my husband he was a year yeah he was a year ahead of me and he’d come out no he was a year ahead of me in a different course he did geology and I didn’t yeah he came out and got a really good grade and I didn’t want to be the dumbass girlfriend so was like okay I’m gonna study so it saved me Jules (21:34) in the same course. Yeah. that’s impressive. Okay, so you finished. What did you do? What was the first job after leaving school? Leaving uni. Dionne Payn (22:00) Yeah, yeah, that’s right. I went to work for Smithclime Beecham before they merged with Gruxo. And so that was a pharmaceutical job and I really enjoyed the job. Jules (22:02) Sorry, I always put people on the spot and they go, haven’t even thought about this for so long. yeah. Yeah. Dionne Payn (22:21) I was still with my boyfriend and our husband at the time, but we were working in different places. So we working at different locations around the M25. So each weekend was a mad dash for one of us to drive over to the other one and then get back and ready for work on Monday morning and dealing with the M25, you know, sort of on a Friday evening, that kind of thing. So I enjoyed the work that I was doing, but I didn’t enjoy working for a big company. And I remember feeling like a sort of small cog Jules (22:34) night. interesting. Dionne Payn (22:51) in a very big machine and I was just irrelevant. Not to the people that I was working alongside, but in the sort of bigger scheme of things and I just, yeah, yeah. And I really like that, being able to see the effect of what I’m doing. So the next job I had was working for a smaller company where I felt that I was being really helpful and I really enjoyed that. Jules (22:59) That’s the biggest game of things yet. Yeah. And so, was that another pharmaceutical role? Dionne Payn (23:20) Yeah, yeah, so it was a pharmaceutical role and yeah, it was around that time that I decided that I was going to do a masters because I wanted to study a bit more. So I did that and I was working at that role at the same time and that was great. And then we went to live in Jersey for a while because that’s where my husband is from. And we were there for about three years, which was a really fun time, but I just missed. Jules (23:30) Yeah. Right. which is just a tiny, and it’s a tiny island off England, isn’t it, Jersey? Dionne Payn (23:46) So small, so small. At the time we were living there, there were 100,000 people and the island is nine miles by five. So I think that’s about 14 kilometers by seven, something like that. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, small island and I just, did feel a bit hemmed in. Jules (24:00) Right. Right? Dionne Payn (24:07) So after being on the islands, that was when myself and my husband decided that we were going to go travelling and not so much travelling to go to lots of different countries but just have a change of scene. So we decided that we were going to move to New Zealand and we were going to do a year and… Jules (24:20) right? Why New Zealand? Was there a connection there or had you seen an ad or what was it? ⁓ Dionne Payn (24:35) Geography wasn’t my strong point. Jules (24:37) ⁓ no, don’t tell me you thought it was nearby. ⁓ right. Dionne Payn (24:41) I thought it was tropical. I thought it was tropical because a friend of mine had gone to Fiji. And I was like, ⁓ Fiji’s over that side of the world. Let’s go to New Zealand. And we wanted to be somewhere where we could be for a year, immerse ourselves in something different culture, but not too different that we had to learn a new language. So we thought a year in New Zealand and then a year in Australia. And when we got to Australia, sorry, when we got to New Zealand, we went to Auckland and my husband was able to study ⁓ at an audio engineering school there and I was trying to find work. ⁓ Jules (24:47) and it was nearby. become locals. Right? Okay. Dionne Payn (25:16) I just found I found Aucklanders to be really they were friendly enough but not friendly. They were nice, they were nice people but not friendly and I just it felt like social suicide to me because I I love making friends. Mid-20s so um yeah it was 2005 so 27th yeah yeah. Jules (25:27) Right. How roughly how old are you at this stage? I mean, are you in your 30s or mid 20s? Okay. Right, okay. ⁓ So, from New Zealand to Australia, slight difference, where did you move to in Australia? Dionne Payn (25:46) I’m. We came over to visit. Well, we just came over to visit and we came over for, so we’d been in New Zealand for about two months. Came over to visit a friend who was living in Brisbane. He took us down to Byron and I was just hooked. Jules (25:54) Right. Anyway, we’re hooked. Dionne Payn (26:08) We’re never leaving. How do we move here permanently? So my husband was able to transfer his course to the college in Byron and I was offered a PhD scholarship through Southern Cross University. So I just leapt on it because that was what I wanted to do. And I thought I’d have to wait until I got back to the UK, but I was able to do it in Australia. And that gave us enough points to stay in Australia. So that was really awesome. Jules (26:08) Totally. Yeah. Wow, and then from that you were able to become permanent residents and then citizens. And so it sounds like your husband was also going through a bit of a career change because if he’s gone from pharmaceutical to audio… geography to audio. Okay, so, and is he still in the audio business now? No. Dionne Payn (26:35) Yeah. Yeah. Well, he went from geography to audio. Yeah. That’s a long story too. Jules (26:57) Okay, I won’t go down that rabbit hole then. Tell me about you. So, okay, so you were doing your PhD in, was it pharmaceutical still? Okay, and. Dionne Payn (27:07) Yeah, yeah. So I was actually looking at sugar cane as a source of medicines for diabetes. So it was pharmaceutical, but it was more natural products and that was what I was really interested in. And that was a great experience. I loved the work and the camaraderie was fantastic, but I just realized that at that Jules (27:18) Yeah. Dionne Payn (27:30) point if I didn’t have children and once I’d finished if I went straight into the postdoctoral positions I probably wouldn’t have children or have them much later and then maybe struggle to have children at all. So when I finished that when I finished my PhD I was hmm probably about six weeks away from my due date and I just thought look I’ll figure out yeah. Jules (27:49) Right. wow, you got pregnant during the… Okay. Dionne Payn (27:53) Yeah, I was very close to the end, but yeah, and so yeah, I had my daughter who arrived late, which was great because I got to have a bit of a break from studying because it was pretty intense at that point. Yeah. Jules (27:56) Yeah. time me a bit of time out not knowing what was going to happen though you know we all think we’re going to have this great little baby and it’s going to be easy and it’s just more challenging okay so did you stop work then ⁓ yeah go on yeah Dionne Payn (28:15) Actually, I have to say, Jules, my first year with my daughter, Marlia, it was like I was on holiday because the intensity of the PhD was that I was just working all the time and Marlia was really cruising at that age. She’d slept and did all the great things that you wish for as a parent. ⁓ Jules (28:23) brilliant! Yeah, great. Perfect. that’s amazing. Okay, so what did you do then? You’ve taken that year out to be with Malia. Did you decide to go back to work? Did you have another child? What was the next step? ⁓ Dionne Payn (28:46) Yeah, so we decided that I was going to stay home with Marlia. And in that first year, Marlia was just a very chilled child. After that, she became very energetic. Jules (29:03) As children tend to do. Dionne Payn (29:06) as children tend to do. And so yeah, there was lots of running around and I would do bits and pieces of contract work, so marketing work here and there, but it was mainly I was at home and my husband was working. And then four years later, my son came along, four years after Malia was born, my son came along. And at that point, and I loved, I had maybe about a year with him at home. And it just seemed like a really natural time for my husband to take it. Jules (29:24) Yeah. Dionne Payn (29:36) bit of a step back and for me to start working again and it was around that time that we decided to go into property and learn about property and in fact we’d probably been learning about property a year before, in the first year that Atticus was born, you know towards the end of that year was when we found a joint venture partner through one of the property courses that we did and that was how. Jules (29:38) Okay, nice. So, can I just interrupt? So were you doing these courses for your personally to just get ahead and say, if we want to be able to buy houses and things, then we need to be able to start making money. Okay, so it was just purely from an interest kind of point of view that you started with the property. Dionne Payn (30:09) Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. it was totally about money making. It was like, what can I do? Because at that point I figured that I was pretty unemployable. know, having done a PhD, having worked by myself for four years, having taken time off to be with my kids, I was just like, yeah, who’s going to employ me? They’re probably going to find me really bossy and just, you know. Jules (30:21) Right. You I’m sure they would have loved you, but anyway it was time for a bit of a shift so Dionne Payn (30:42) It was time for a shift and you know being on one income and staying home with the kids was fantastic but bearing in mind that I’d been a student, I’d been on a stipend and my husband had a decent job but on one income it just doesn’t cut it so I just really wanted to understand the game of property so we could play it to our advantage. Jules (32:10) And so how you said you brought up got a joint venture partner. It sounds to me like it got bigger than, you know, normal people, not normal people, a lot of people who maybe will go out and a two bedroom flat as their first thing. What were you, what was your first project that you did with your husband and partners? Dionne Payn (32:31) Yes, so our first project was a ⁓ house on a block. It was a house in a studio. They were connected by a roof. The block must have been about, it was a long time ago, but maybe about 1400 square meters. So a decent sized block. Yeah. So I realized that we could remove the roof, renovate both properties, clean them up, give them a good renovation, subdivide them. Jules (32:38) Yeah. quite big, yeah. Dionne Payn (33:01) basically doing a paper exercise to separate them, put them on separate titles so that we could sell them separately and I did the numbers on that and it looked like it would be quite a healthy return so we presented that to the joint venture partner and he was happy to basically bankroll that while we did the work for it. Jules (33:03) Yep. Okay, so my big question has to be how do you find a joint venture partner? I mean, where did that come from? Because that’s not something that I hear very many other people do. Dionne Payn (33:29) It came from the property courses that we were doing and I remember the lady that ran the first course that we did, she said, know, money’s everywhere. Like you just don’t worry about the money. Like once you’ve got the deal, you’ll find the money. And I remember thinking at the time, like that sounds like a crock of, but okay, let’s give it a go. And so, you know, we did a series of, ⁓ found properties and we ran the numbers and we got help Jules (33:32) Right. You Dionne Payn (33:59) from the lady as well, because it was a mentor program. And so once we found the deal, she let us present it on stage. And so that was where we found somebody that had ⁓ the money and yeah, like total sweat equity there, because we didn’t have the money to put into it. But we had the enthusiasm and the, you know, like really wanting to make something work. Jules (34:02) Yeah. wow, right. Did you actually get out with, were you and your husband out with hammers and nails or were you project managing builders? Dionne Payn (34:35) We were project managing and also doing some of the work. So when I was responsible for sandpapering the frames, my husband had made a door. So he’s handy, I’m not. So he’d made the door and I was responsible for sanding the frames and I sandpapered the glass. And at the time I just wasn’t being that, you know, sort of… Jules (34:37) Right. Right, okay. Ha ha ha ha! Dionne Payn (35:03) careful because I was like, we’ll be able to you know rub that out and then he said no you can’t rub it out. I was like no. So that’s a bit of a running joke for us because he’s now a handyman and every once in a while I say do you need any help? He’s like no, ⁓ not from you. ⁓ Jules (35:10) dear. Right. HAHAHAHA ⁓ Okay, so you sold your first property, presumably made a nice little pot of money to be able to start investing into another one. How did your business grow or how did your career grow from there? Dionne Payn (35:28) we did. Well, did, actually just going back, Jules, because I think it’s really important. You said something about not many people would just go and find a joint venture partner or know how to do that. It’s that thing for me which is… Jules (35:40) Yeah, yeah. No. Dionne Payn (35:57) and somebody else talks about this in terms of the illusion of limited resources. So we think because we don’t have something that it’s just never going to happen. But that for me was a real eye-opener in, well, yeah, I didn’t have it, but I had another resource. ⁓ just putting the value on having time as a resource and the skill to be able to do something is so important because sometimes we think that money is everything. And money does grease Jules (36:01) Yeah. that other people don’t. Yeah. Dionne Payn (36:27) the wheels but you actually have to have people that will implement on your behalf and so I realised that as implementers and as people that were you know yes we can manage this project and yes we can do some of the work there was actually a lot of value in that and I just think it’s really important to bring that up because yes sometimes in places so much importance on money but when we realise that we all have have a resource that we and a skill that we can bring to the table it just really evens up the playing field. Jules (36:32) Right. Yeah, Dionne Payn (36:57) you Jules (36:57) and not to be scared of not necessarily having money because there are plenty of other people that do have it and don’t have that time. Okay, ⁓ so back to the question, what happened next? How did your ⁓ building, I guess, and property career from pharmaceutical, how did that progress? Or were you still just doing that on the side as a little project? Dionne Payn (37:04) Exactly. Yeah. No, no. we, after that project, we found another one. In fact, we found the other one in the middle of that project. And so we went back to the joint venture partner and said, hey, do you want to do this one? And so we did that. And then we found another project. So that really began our property development business. And yeah, so we did three. Jules (37:28) Right. flipping. Dionne Payn (37:46) projects and they were smaller, pretty similar, renovation subdivision and then the fourth project team was when I found the piece of land that had approval for the 14 one-bedroom townhouses and that project really, it was so… Jules (38:00) late. Dionne Payn (38:08) game changing for me. just blew my mind. I remember thinking about it afterwards and just going, wow, like I proved something really important that I didn’t even know that I needed to prove. And when I was growing up, so you know, my parents were working class, they worked really hard, but we didn’t have a lot of money. And so things were really tight. And also my mum’s family are ⁓ quite religious. So church was a big thing in my life as someone growing up. So kind of Jules (38:37) Yeah. Dionne Payn (38:38) equated ⁓ being of service and not having much money as being the same thing. So when we did this bigger project and I saw the benefit that it had on the community and I made money out of it, was like, you know those times where you’re just like, da da da da da, yeah, yeah, something really big has happened here. So that was it for me, it was like, well. Jules (38:55) The light bulb, yep. Dionne Payn (39:04) I can do property, because being of service is something that’s really important to me, like it’s just one of those values for me. So, and I guess as well that I’d had a bit of a perception of if you’re making lots of money, then you’re probably not making it in the right way. You know what mean? And particularly, yes, yeah, yeah. Jules (39:08) Yeah. No, and you probably don’t care about other people. I think there’s all those kind of weird things that are associated with wealth. Dionne Payn (39:29) Yeah, 100 % and particularly being in the property development industry as well. Yeah, like it’s just it. Yeah, anyway, all of that together just blew my mind and went, okay, we can do property development differently. And it wasn’t that I had that epiphany right at that time. And because actually that project was really challenging and it was it was a really bit of more than I could chew with that project. And so there were some lessons that I had to learn. Jules (39:33) property game. Well, it’s quite a lot to go from little one and two bedroom houses to 14 of them. And all the associated things, well, as you already alluded to, car parks and all those sorts of things that you wouldn’t even think about when you’re just thinking, just need to build walls. Dionne Payn (40:01) Yes. ⁓ Yes. Exactly, exactly. mean, in terms of the level of work, it’s the same amount of work. You know, it’s still a full time job. from that perspective, doing a project like that, like a larger project, you might as well use your time to do that kind of project. But there’s just a lot more to manage. And so it’s, you know, sort of doing those renovations, subdivisions is something that you can do as an individual or as a couple. Doing a larger scale project like that, you’ve Jules (40:18) Right. Yeah. Dionne Payn (40:40) really need to be on top of project management, financial management, people management, all of that. And so that I think that was the big learning curve and particularly around the people because I just, you know, I’m a very friendly person and, and, know, I always assume the best in people. So it was a real lesson that actually you can’t do that. You can’t assume the best. You’ve always got to be prepared. And so the, the important… Jules (40:57) Yeah. I’m sorry but there’s definitely a story in that. There has to be. You don’t have to name names or anything. But just because I’m somebody who takes people at face value and always trusts them. And I’m always incredibly hurt when I think that I’ve made the wrong decision or I find out I’ve made the wrong decision. Sorry to interrupt you but there clearly is a story. So was it a builder? Was it a… There was something that happened where somebody ripped you off. Dionne Payn (41:16) here. Wrong builder, wrong joint venture partner. Yeah, yeah. So not, wasn’t the same joint venture partner that I’d had right at the beginning. And look, I say wrong builder, wrong joint venture partner, they were absolutely right. They were absolutely right because that’s how I know. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ Jules (41:36) ⁓ right. Okay. in the previous ones, yep. Well they taught you, that’s how you learned, isn’t it? butts. Dionne Payn (41:56) The joint venture partner, it’s the values alignment. It wasn’t there. And that was a hard lesson because when, you know, sort of going through the project and… Jules (42:01) right Dionne Payn (42:08) The joint venture partner was very interested in minimizing costs and when that suited me that was great. But then I saw the fallout of that in terms of the builder ended up going broke. He had his own issues as well, but just the sort of, you know, really holding the purse strings and not being fair in terms of the way of, ⁓ you know, managing a project. Jules (42:15) You the quality. Right. OK. I’m so glad you say that because I do think that, ⁓ and I put it as a masculine thing, but it probably isn’t. It’s just probably more a finance thing that they remove the emotion completely. And I see it in my partner. He gets on a whole different face when we’re talking about money and it’s a very weird thing. But I’m like, why does one have to exclude the other? And I guess that’s where you butted heads with somebody who was there. Let’s be a hard-nosed business pragmatist. This is about us making money, it’s not about giving charity to other people. And it’s actually that combination that you want, that we all want you to do. Dionne Payn (43:12) Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I just really saw the impact that that had on the builder ⁓ because… Jules (43:18) Right. Dionne Payn (43:22) And like I said, the builder had his own challenges as well. So it was definitely a compounding effect. yeah, yeah, it was just values alignment. I really do believe in being fair and treating people fairly. And so when somebody is just all about the numbers and I’m all about the people, just, and we couldn’t agree on how to proceed on that. So that was a challenge. Jules (43:27) Yeah. But I think it’s just one of those classic, know, it sounds like a fuck up or whatever. And then you kind of go, well, actually it was a gift because really otherwise you could have kept doing this with people like him until something much worse happened. Dionne Payn (44:03) 100 % and it was a her by the way. Yeah. Jules (44:05) Oh, even worse, with somebody like them I should have said I did realise I make these future assumptions. Okay, so you finished your 14 houses, what came next? Other than probably a nervous breakdown. Oh really? Dionne Payn (44:16) ⁓ Yes, yep. Not quite the nervous breakdown, but certainly a period of depression and darkness. ⁓ no, it was actually the best thing. Again, with what you said before, we go through these things and then come out of it realizing the gift. And the gift for me and that was I’m stronger than I think. So it took… Jules (44:26) here. Yeah. undoubtedly. Dionne Payn (44:43) Yeah, it took me to go to the brink to get there, but I just remember at that time when it seemed really bleak, just thinking, I’ve just got to put one foot in front of the other, I’m going to get through this. I didn’t even know how I was going to get through it. It wasn’t like I had a plan. like, okay, yes, I’ll do this and this and this, and then I’ll get through it. But I just trusted in something bigger in terms of… Yeah, just trusted that continuously doing the right thing would actually see me out and just acting out of integrity would see me through. yeah, that was the gift. Jules (45:22) Well I’m glad it didn’t put you off property because it could have done that too. You could have gone back to pharmacology and… did it? Did it? Okay. ⁓ you poor thing. So what did you do next? Dionne Payn (45:27) No, did for a while. I remember saying to people, I’m never doing property ever again. So I look, I did some more projects, but then realized that my heart wasn’t really in it. And I did a lot of soul searching actually, and a lot of personal development. Yeah, that was good. I mean, I sort of went into that personal development thinking that I was broken. I came out of that personal development realizing that I’m not broken. just, you know, sort of had a set of circumstances that now I know better and now I’m more in alignment with my own values. I could just go, well, I wouldn’t do that again. So that was really beneficial. And… At the time I remember meeting a developer, really randomly actually, I went to a networking meeting and met a guy and was having a chat with him and I don’t know if he called me or I called him and he was like, you need to meet this developer guy that I’m working with. And so I met him and we had a good old chat and that was real values alignment. So it was chalk and cheese from what I’d had before with my joint venture partner. Jules (46:48) right Dionne Payn (46:51) and he asked me if I would raise money for him because I was good at doing that and good at finding joint venture partners. I would raise money for him. Jules (46:56) Sorry, what right is money for him? raise, yep, yep. Dionne Payn (47:01) Yeah, yeah. And yeah, because I’d had that experience of working with investors and joint venture partners. And I said, yeah, I can do that. And we we ended up working together for quite some time. like it’s still in my life now, we don’t work together in the business anymore. But we work together on individual projects. And yeah, so we had that working relationship for quite some time. And he actually mentored me out of property development because I was just thinking, this isn’t for me, I want to do more capital raising, I’m enjoying that aspect of it because it is all about, for me it’s about making friends, right? If I can make friends I’m happy. ⁓ And so I remember speaking to him as well after we met and just saying, look I’m happy to raise capital for you but I only want to do it for affordable and sustainable housing, how do you feel about that? And he was like, yeah that’s great, let’s set up a fund where we just do that and I was like, great! Jules (47:38) Yeah, yeah. brilliant! Dionne Payn (48:01) Thank you, Universe. Jules (48:01) Thank you, universe. Dionne Payn (48:04) So, I mean, it’s taken, ⁓ gosh, I met him in 2019. It is now 2025, and he has now set up the fund, and I’ve got the housing project. Excuse me. ⁓ Jules (48:19) Okay. Dionne Payn (48:19) ⁓ So it’s taken that time to get there, but that was the wish that we put out into the universe right back then, and it’s happening. So it’s really lovely to come full circle. Jules (48:29) I’m so pleased. Yeah, and it sounds like you’ve had quite a journey, but I think, you know, the fact that you have those values and that you’ve stuck by those values will, you know, is not only inspiring, but I think will hopefully… ⁓ help you make that impact and anything I can do to help you do that and make those get those affordable housing for women but also those investment opportunities is brilliant. So next question I’ve got one weird question for you at the end that’s nothing to do with anything that I ask everyone but in the meantime if anybody is listening to this and loves the sound of it and at $5,000 it seems very achievable that people can get involved what is the best way for them to get in touch with you? is the best way for them to, yeah, become part of your world. Dionne Payn (49:22) Yeah great, okay couple of ways. One, find me on LinkedIn because I’m very vocal on LinkedIn, often posting and so I just do a search for my name Dion Payne on LinkedIn and ⁓ the other way is going to the website and joining up at the website which is womenforhomes.com so that’s women number four homes.com and either way they’ll be in my universe and I’ll be in their universe and it will be lovely and Jules (49:26) Yep. great URL. Dionne Payn (49:52) Yeah, just, one of the things that I’m working on at the moment is a series of co-living homes for older women that are… Yes. Yes. Jules (50:00) my god, really? I love the sound of this. This is my sort of thing that I think I want to do when I get older. Dionne Payn (50:08) Yes. Awesome. Beautiful, affordable, dignified. That’s my sort of catchphrase for these homes. And we’re looking at using sustainable materials, using hemp. so I’m on this journey at the moment and I’m really looking for women that feel inspired to be a part of something like this. yeah, whether it’s investing or whether it’s spreading the word, I just see that this would be something really amazing. Jules (50:14) Right. Brilliant. Dionne Payn (50:39) And it’s something that’s really achievable, it’s something that already exists in the planning rules, it’s not that we have to do anything crazy. And we can really make a difference because as you alluded to right at the beginning, Women Over 50 is that fastest growing group facing homelessness and we don’t have to just wait for homelessness to happen, we can actually stop it at the source. And stopping at the source is exactly, exactly, yeah. Jules (50:51) Yeah. Yeah, we’ve got to nip it in the bud now. Yeah, yeah. And so are you building those just quickly to go to the properties that you, the co-living places? Are they all in Northern New South Wales at the moment? Or where are they? Dionne Payn (51:10) No, no. So they’ll be in Victoria, New South Wales and South Australia because the rules for those, they’re called rooming houses. The rules for those rooming houses are pretty flexible. Whereas in New South Wales, they’re actually, you need to do a large number of them to make it profitable. And so, you know, we’ve got an opportunity to make it profitable for investors, but also make it affordable for the inhabitants and a number of different ways of doing that. Jules (51:19) Yes. Right. Dionne Payn (51:40) working with community housing providers and that sort of thing. yeah, ⁓ I’m really excited about bringing this into being. Jules (51:48) I’m really excited that you’re bringing this into being as well. I just think this is so good Dion, I think that’s what we need and we need people like you to champion that change that needs to happen. ⁓ And I’m just so thrilled that I got a chance to meet you but also now to be able to share what it is that you’re doing because I do think you’re pretty extraordinary. ⁓ Dionne Payn (52:09) Thank you. Jules (52:10) And I’m absolutely delighted that you’re doing this and that I know you. So, okay, here’s a really out of left field question for you. Is there a quirky fact about you that most people don’t know that you’d be up for sharing? And it literally can be anything. So I’ve heard everything from Kate Toon telling me that she was the first person on Graham Norton’s Big Red Share. Who even knew that? Two people who are synchro, I know! Dionne Payn (52:18) Take care. didn’t Jules (52:38) She did it and then he started it as a regular thing apparently. ⁓ Yes, I’ve had CEOs tell me their secret rev heads. I’ve had all sorts of things. So is there a quirky fact about you that people might not know? Dionne Payn (52:42) Very cool. Yes, a few years ago, ⁓ for about two or three years, I was part of an 80s flash mob. Jules (52:54) Yeah. stop it in Australia yeah Dionne Payn (53:06) in Australia. We were called the Cassettes. The Cassettes is still going, they’re still flash mobbing. I jumped out of it actually as things got a bit more serious with the development because I just didn’t have the time. But we would go and perform dances to 80s music. It was so much fun. So much fun. ⁓ Jules (53:25) ⁓ wow, what I would give to see you in some leg warmers and leotards out doing an 80s dance. I love that. Well Dion, thank you so so much for this interview. It’s been really fun. You are an amazing woman. I absolutely hope that people listening to this will get in touch with you and become part of this movement that you’re building. And thank you for doing what you’re doing. Dionne Payn (53:36) It’s been so fun. Thank you. And look, ⁓ I just want to say thank you for interviewing me. ⁓ It’s been so much fun being on the show. And I love what you’re doing as well. And I love the fact that you’re such a super connector. ⁓ And yeah, I really appreciate that about you. Jules (53:55) Gosh. Thank you.